We don’t want them to sit for hours after pressing the Automatch button. Yes, Automatch could prioritize opponents of similar strength, but if a 69k presses Automatch and there is only a 30k around, there is no other choice than to pair them.
I see in my club that there are not so many beginners (30k or weaker) compared to experienced players. It might be possible to split 30k or weaker players on OGS into two classes, but not many more.
The ratings, and this thread, only make sense if the players involved are playing the same game.
all the comments are well said and explained from each point of view kudos to everyone for opening this debate with much to think about–
There is no such thing.
You can have katago playing against itself as a good example of “equal opponent”: humans are just “not that good” at playing, even pros.
The more you go down in the rating , the more differences there are between players, even with the same exact ELO.
I don’t like the expression “random moves”, I don’t want to be disrespectful, but all experienced players know, even if they’re DDK, that beginners play moves that are just unreasonable. That’s not their fault: it’s just lack of knowledge. I’ve been there and I still am, from a Dan player 's perspective. So I’m not complaining or mocking beginners.
That’s the way it is.
You can’t just even out random or unreasonable behaviour with handicap stones.
From the ratings in the Game History. They seem to be capped at 69, while ratings displayed and used for matching are capped at 25. Weird, but that is what happens.
Yes, it’s also visible in the code at for example: online-go.com/src/views/RatingCalculator/glicko2.ts at main · online-go/online-go.com · GitHub
The Glicko rating is (arbitrarily?) limited at -900 which leads to a rank of 69 kyu. It could be lower, this is probably considered low enough for the algo to work.
I’ve looked into some of your games.
I can understand why you’re ranked 69k.
This game has a goal: territory.
You just don’t play for territory. Building diagonals has no sense in this game.
You have about 70 games going. All of them on 19x19 and 13x13 boards.
Large boards can be confusing and overwhelming for beginners. They need tactics to develop territory.
Did you ever try 9x9?
The only main goal for beginners on 9x9 is to create living groups of stones. This is a very basic concept for this game that you don’t seem to know.
I’d suggest you to look into some tutorials to have a sense of the game purposes and structure.
Then play 9x9 until you overcome the first learning step of this game: making living groups.
If you’re able to make living groups, then you could try to make them bigger than your opponent and that’s the way to win a game.
You’ll become 25k instantly.
All this 25k argument is all about a simple statement: if you know the simplest basic fundamentals of this game, you can’t be lower than that. At the moment you don’t seem to know them.
May I ask how old are you?
your thought process is very good and your suggestions are well sounded for conventional players or the very young - iam neither – iam well over 75 years old ans don’t play the game with the idea to win – that left many years ago i play to see if i canreach the goals i set for myself 13 x13 boards right noare 120 moves before 10 stones are taken 19x9 is 220 moves before 20 stones are taken – i will this week increase those preamiters this week to 125 moves 10 stones and 230moves 20 stones gone - and see what i can do against those goals tis week – thanks for the input always welcomed
I believe it’s helpful for you to know that @dokbohm (previously using the account @NEWOLDGUY) is bit of a celebrity here and that the community did invest a “bit” (wink wink) of effort already to get him to a point where he would be able to play real Go.
Unfortunately with very limited success.
Absolutely! I wholeheartedly agree.
When I said “equal opponent” I did not mean equal in a mathematical sense.
What I did mean was “of similar level”. Meaning: Opponents where (on average) a player would have a 50% chance of winning.
It’s true that even if two players do have the exact same rating, that this doesn’t mean the expectation is fifty-fifty between them. However, rating is the best tool we have. And not really using it for beginners is inherently beginner-unfriendly.
@FritzS is that true?
I played newoldguy a couple of times and his game history is strange. Here is him laying a beat down on a 6k in 2019. Seems like at some point he knew how to play. So either somebody took over his account, he sandbagged or he sincerely forgot how to play. My understanding is that Dokbohm is new to the game entirely.
There were multiple indicators back then that strongly suggested that the person now playing as @dokbohm previously did take over the account @NEWOLDGUY from someone who did know the game quite well.
Ahhh, the circle of life..
everyone knows everything about me i guess??? — so if was a 6k player back then then why? why? would ask for help here and play the way i do – really shake your head people – plus what has that past got to do with what we are talking about here– get back to the dicussion at hand people and just help play the game
Ok so new goal for you: make some territories. I hope you master a bit now how to capture or not been captured after all these games.
Very ambitious goal already!
I believe way before that comes the goal: Think before making a move.
Move times of @dokbohm in a recent game (in seconds): 3,12 8,37 11,81 0,73 2,26 1,17 0,80 0,65 0,67 0,68 1,06 0,71 0,71 0,61 0,58 0,57 1,87 3,39 0,62 0,66 0,99 1,77 0,65 0,83 0,65 0,69 0,84 0,57 1,41 0,90 0,19 0,62 0,73 0,62 0,71 2,07 0,64 0,55 3,71 0,57 0,79 1,60 1,13 1,85 1,30 2,33 4,46 5,45 7,71 0,73 13,94 0,96 1,54 6,27 1,73 0,58 0,58 2,27
Go demands thought - mindless moves won’t cut it.
oh yea another one of those i guess — and yes i guess iam a mindless mover of go–
I was just checking if things have changed on your end but unfortunately they have not.
A few months ago the community here (including myself) wasted considerable amount of time giving you tons of otherwise valuable guidance because we missed that you are typically not willing or able (or both) to think before making a move - which is of course the most fundamental requirement for learning the game.
they have- changed for me i last longer in games now than i did three months ago and will contunie to extend my survial each game till i get to point where i feel successful enough to shift learning curves and proceed with my journey in go - on a 13x 13 board -starting out at 80 moves and 20 stones and now i am at 120 moves and 10 stones the longer i last the harder my opponent has to win till iam sure there will be a tipping point
I am glad to see this optimistic attitude, and that you are at least improving at your private game of Delaying Capture (and that you can still find people who are happy to play against you). I would also be really pleased to see you switch to playing real Go. One thing you have to be prepared for though, is to unlearn much of what you have learned, when you make that switch.
I have asked myself if you could make that transition easier by somehow altering the character of your targets to bring them more more in line with what you will need in future but I find that difficult. Ideally you would not just keep your stones on the board for n moves, but make them definitely alive (uncapturable). The problem with that is that you seem not to be able to tell what is alive, even in really simple cases. One way round that might be to look at what OGS says about the final position once the game is over: do not consider your goal achieved if it shows a large group of yours as belonging to your opponent.
I wonder if anyone else has a better idea for how to make your targets more realistic.