never mind i see from your describing in the above post the reason– i do not understand that thinking but i know your are correct, its just there is starting a feeling that i will never understand this counting points thing and may just have to forget about thinking about it, and just play as some have said here they do, just capture stones and don’t worry about the rest
You don’t have to fully understand the concept of life and death (for now).
However, what you should take away from this conversation:
- Every stone you play should have a purpose.
- Never play without thinking.
- Care for every stone you play: If a stone gets attacked (by the opponent playing very close to it) support your stone by adding others stones, eventually building a group that completely surrounds at least some free intersections.
- Every stone of yours that is not part of a larger group at the end of the game (surrounding at least some territory) counts as one point for your opponent.
- Try to surround corners first, then surround territory on the sides of the board and care for the center of the board last. The third line is called the “line of territory”. At the beginning of the game, mostly play on the third line. See below:
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So, once again, this gets back to the core issue that you are having trouble understanding - what makes a LIVING GROUP
We’ve talked about a group needing a minimum of 2-eyes to live a few times here, but perhaps the simples way of thinking about it is - in order for a group of stones to be alive, and stay on the board with no chance of their opponent capturing them, they have to surround / enclose some part of the board in such a way that there’s no possible way for their opponent to capture them
In the above example, White has a living group in the corner because there’s no possible sequence of moves where Black plays on both J9 and J7 at the same time. Since there’s no way Black can capture these stones, White’s group is alive
Now, compare that to the situation faced by White’s two stones at B2 and B3 - can you imagine any possible way for White to play a series of moves where they end up making two separate eyes worth of life in that tight little corner on the lower left?
You can try it for yourself, but in the end, I think you will discover that it is 100% impossible. There’s just not enough room! Plus, for every move White makes, Black can make their own move and reduce those chances even further.
As such, because those two stones failed to make a living group, they count as Black’s prisoners. Because Black’s group has SO MANY liberties all over the board, there’s very little chance that White can surround Black completely without getting their stones captured.
Yes, this does require both players to think about what the board might look like in the future, when each has played more moves - and yes, this does require a bit of experience under your belt to be able to do that kind of look-ahead. But the important part is - if you have no chance whatsoever to make a living group in such a small space - any additional stones you play are just giving points to your opponent. Does that make sense? Do you understand why A1 and A2 cannot be counted as points for White, and are in fact part of Black’s secure territory - even though there are 2 White prisoner stones there?
We keep going around and around this
- you ask us for help understanding something
- multiple people take the time to try and help you understand
- you come back and you say that you will never understand and are giving up
- you come back the next day asking for help understanding something
Yes, of course you can go back to “just trying to capture stones” if that provides you with entertainment. But please remember - if you don’t understand what makes a living group or how to enclose parts of the board securely to get points - you will continue to lose games every single time. You would get similar results if you just placed stones on random parts of the board.
Going back to the analogy with tennis - it’s like you’re saying - “Well, the rules of tennis are too complex for me to understand. I’ll just keep hitting the ball.”
Sure, and perhaps that would give you the benefit of some exercise - but every time you hit the ball into the net, or out of bounds of the court - your opponent will get that point, and you will be one step closer to losing that game. If you’re not worried about getting better at tennis, and losing game after game - then yeah, that’s great - you’ll get some good cardio benefits. However, you aren’t actually “playing tennis” - you’re just hitting a ball, and someone else is keeping score.
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Counting may be confusing.
There’s a well-established tradition about teaching Japanese or Chinese rules from the start. Unfortunately Japanese and Chinese ways of counting are more or less like abridged versions of what was probably the original way of counting, i.e. the so-called “stone counting”: black’s points are simply the number of black stones on the board and white’s points are simply the number of white stones on the board.
I think beginners should be exposed to stone counting method first, and only later to Japanese or Chinese, as ways to save time instead of count all the stones one by one.
In my opinion, teaching Japanese or Chinese rules is like talking all the time about the “U.S.A” acronym before (or worse, without ever) teaching the meaning of the single letters the acronym stems from: “United States (of) America”.
i think a3 and b1 but that only makes one eye
In the case of Go, it will be RSI: Repetitive Strain Injury 
I still suggest playing through the formidable interactive tutorial – there are lots of chapters that even I haven’t played through because I didn’t know that it has been extended so much over time.
I believe that any five year old can play through it and learn the most basic skills, and the nice thing is you can simply, FOR HEAVEN’S SAKE, PLAY THE FRIGGIN’ INTERACTIVE TUTORIAL, IT GIVES YOU INSTANT FEEDBACK!
Oy. Wazzat me?
I mean, LOOK, it’s like this, I made a short video extra for you:
Guys I admire you all for your patience in this thread. The go community is really such a great community.
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Yes, it is great, @joachim.
Slowly, @dokbohm has @tonybe and @FritzS typing in bold more and more and @trohde even going bold+CAPS.
Let’s see where @dokbohm will take them.
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(At the beginning I also thought he is just trolling us. But after seeing the large number of games he is playing and all the comments he is making during these games there is at least a non-zero probability that he is legitimately trying to learn the game.
Combine that notion with my zest for teaching beginners and … now look what has happened.
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I’m begging for anyone in charge to disable his “Estimate score” button.
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Unfortunately, after the last few exchanges - I think I’ve reached a point where I’m ready to step away. I am concerned that the user in question may be facing very real, functional challenges that would limit their ability to make the kind of progress we are all rooting for them to make. The impetus for my time and attention may have come from a place of good intentions / good motivation, but I am concerned that in the end they may be having a net negative impact on the person in question. I’m going to try and do my best to just step back, let go of my subjective desires and expectations, and view the situation through a lens of empathy for someone struggling hard with challenges that are far beyond mine. My 2 cents.
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I stepped away some time ago, but not without a suggestion still valid
Put aside go for a while and play capture go.
well sorry you feel that way but i thank you for helping all the same i did learn some things form you and appreciate your time spent – thanks for helping maybe we could play a game and that way in the game you could see my reason for playing so just a thought – again thanks
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@dokbohm - I sent you a direct message - please check your inbox
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Well, I applaud those who have done their best to teach him. Whatever his psychopathology, there may be lots of readers who will benefit from the efforts in these threads.
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@dokbohm I’ve been reviewing some of your recent games to see which bits of advice have made their way into your games. You’re still fixated on the number of your own stones that have been captured. Certainly that should be of some concern for players, but I’d like to step back to a more fundamental but related question.
Do you know why a stone gets captured? What circumstance in a game causes a stone to be removed from the board?
I still think that you can learn this game, but we need to nail down the rules first.