Defensive moves review request (10k)

can someone check moves 19 and 51 in my recent game please -

I tried to play “more solidly” because I noticed that in general I leave too much aji and ko threats, are these proper defensive moves or too timid ones? (before I would play J16 or tenuki as move 19 and either O13 or R2 as move 51 - this was kinda experimental plays for me - is it good direction?)

(tittle and post edited, in game I didnt knew I was ahead (byo-yomi and estimation fails), so full review is not needed)

I’m only 18k so feel free to disregard my thoughts as simple DDK foolery, never the less…

I like your played move 19. It feels a lot stronger and radiates strength towards you corner and helps to build your moyo. I feel like my understanding of your suggestion of J16 is one line too high. The tigers mouth on the third line is really good because it protects the cut on both sides but on the fourth line it isn’t really needed and so to me the solid connection is stronger.

One thing my teacher often says to me is

“if you think a move might have been too slow, look at how your opponent responded and ask yourself if where they played would have been better for you”

I don’t feel confident with my reading of the situation at move 51, but when i look at white’s response at P12… it kinda makes me feel like I’d rather have played there. I could be wrong but S15 looks like it only gets you 2 points and after P12 white has a lot more room and thus is under less pressure.

Again just my 2c from a lowly DDK :slight_smile: good job for trying some variety in your games!

Both moves you mention feel slow to me. Slow isn’t always wrong, but unless it’s necessary it’s usually best avoided.

I think the advice BHydden quotes is very applicable to move 19. A black move at D9 instead of white would have worked very nicely with the wall. Indeed it’s almost necessary to have a move in that area for the wall to be worth anything at all. Yes, it’s commendable and often necessary to play more solidly, but sometimes there just isn’t time. I would suggest in this case you have to take sente, play the extension from the wall, and if there are weaknesses left behind… well… deal with those as best you can when they become an issue.

Another note on this move is that it maybe defends the wrong weakness in the wall. Ultimately if white cuts at H16, it’s threatening to extend along the side and eat 1 stone, while you make your wall longer and stronger - that’s not actually a terrible result, especially if it would have cost you a move to get rid of it and you use that move better elsewhere. However, the push and cut at E16 is much nastier and indeed happened later in the game and killed half your group. If you really want a move to defend the wall then maybe look at H15, G14, F14, which also have the advantage of making a bit of shape and extending your group towards the centre a little (although not very much and they’re still slow moves).

(I would feel very similarly about J16 as I do about H16, I’m sure there’s discussion to be had about their relative merits, but in the context they are very similar moves.)

For move 51, the key question is whether the group in the corner is alive without it. If it is alive you really have to tenuki (or play to attack the white group). I haven’t read it out and to some extent it doesn’t matter how I read the situation, it matters how you read it. If you read it as alive without the extra move you just don’t play a defensive stone and leave endgame to the endgame. If you read it as dead without the extra move you have to decide if it’s a big enough group to be worth spending a move on (it probably is unless there’s anything unresolved elsewhere). (Actually, you can connect to M18, so it’s definitely alive without the extra move.)

As it happens, I kinda like your move anyway as it threatens a follow-up of the monkey-jump to T12 to remove much of the white group’s eyespace on the side, but it seems you didn’t see that opportunity even in the endgame (even without the threat to remove eyespace, it’s quite a large endgame move). I’d also agree with BHydden again that something like P12 looks to put more pressure on the white group so I might prefer that to O13 anyway, but again I haven’t read anything out here and that’s just a first impression.

It’s a difficult thing to balance aji with still playing useful and positive moves. I feel these two moves you highlighted were aimed too much towards just trying to reduce aji and didn’t have enough other purpose attached to them. Of course, these things are easy to say in hindsight, and perhaps if you hadn’t played them you would look back at the game and say “oh, I shouldn’t have left a weakness there”, but I guess that’s all part of the challenge!

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H16 is a solid move that reinforces black’s left group and builds the upper side. If tenuki, a white move at H16 would not only isolate H17 but also allow white to threaten the weakness at E16. J16 instead of H16 looks fine but is not as efficient to protect E16.

Letting white prevent black’s extension around D9 is painful, but I think your mistake was earlier, when you played C15. Check out a joseki dictionary, and you’ll see that C15 is usually not considered a good move.

I think S15 is too slow because white cannot kill the corner. If white tries to take away an eye in the corner, black can always connect his groups by playing O18, N19 or P19.

I wonder if someone could elaborate on why this is a bad move?

At Josekipedia it says “This feels natural (Hane at the Head of Two Stones), but it is a mistake” … but it doesn’t say why it is a mistake.

Thanks everyone! It is very helpfull feedback.

@SanDiego: looking up josekipedia was first thing I did after game :slight_smile: I will not make that hane again unless special circumstances happens. I felt about corner same way, but I was too worried about misreading it and giving white option to lean on corner to strenghten his group. Tenuki from corner looks best for sure.

@GreenAsJade: If I play D18 white cuts on D15 and stone on F17 is very relevant. If I neutralize it with E15 white may get 4th line territory and if I dont its a messy fight, where best case scenario is I kill corner, white gets wall and worst case scenario is I get nothing for strong corner. Not a tempting fight for black.

@Purble: about monkey jump - that was reason why I played this move in corner. I was aware of it, but I marked for myself that white group as “probably dead” somewhere after white tried to make his bottom right corner live and only strenghtened my wall between those groups. Better to be wrong sometimes and learn then waste moves on killing dead group forever imho. If I evaulated points corretly I should have played move there to make sure its dead ofc. H17 doesnt feel to me like “just one stone”, but more like part of my moyo (possibly completely wrong), I badly underestimated aji of push and cut in my wall.

@BHydden: Its good to remind myself that quote from time to time. About tigers mouth: it can be really good or really bad shape - depends heavily on whether or not opponent can use its weak point - peep at where tigers mouth would form ponnuki. Tigers mouth is very directional shape, it must face the opponent to be good, otherwise its often very weak.

Thing is that white group shouldn’t have died. As late as move 210 white could have saved it by playing S12 rather than T13. I haven’t read out the situation before move 200 in detail, but it seems a stretch to consider that group already dead when it has so much potential eye space, however strong the surrounding groups (it actually looks like it might well reach a seki).

It’s difficult to think of H17 as part of a moyo when the moyo consists of one corner enclosure and a couple of low stones on the same side. If you want a moyo, you must play the extension from the wall. Then the white cut at H16 lets black play a stone at H15 which does start to build something that looks like a moyo on the left.

I should have played to sure kill that group as soon as move 113, thats true. concidering that group as “probably dead” was bit overconfident. 209 S12 should kill, but maybe white have better defensive options…

If I play H16 and one more move in that area its near-sure territory (possibly reducable), I am still not big fan of giving opponent more solid territory and using my wall to build, feels like waste of wall (expecting white to take H17 and then play some reduction while building large-scale moyo for himself and my corner does not have very high potential) H16 looks ok. hrad to tell… Anyway learned that joseki, so no such shenanigans again :slight_smile:

Your link to Josekipedia is very helpful and following through the variations provides the answer. White ends the sequence in sente and steals black’s wall extension. This is similar to what happened in the OP’s game.

Unfortunately H15 gives away a large territory on the upper side, while still not addressing the weakness at E16. I would not recommend it.