Discussion about R16,P16,R13,R17,S17,Q17

At position R16,P16,R13,R17,S17,Q17, @shinuito started the conversation:

Would an attachment at r15 by White be plausible?

( FYI @aesalon )

@shinuito said:

If Black plays 1,2, or 3 say, then possibly Wr15?

( FYI @aesalon )

Unless you’ve seen some joseki dictionary that claims this is a viable move, I think no, it’s not plausible.

To me R15 feels very much like a thank-you move. Black responds at S15 and becomes completely solid, and white’s stone isn’t actually doing anything. If white ataris next, black just connects.

The result is that white loses their own ability to hane at S18, hane there no longer threatens a black stone, meaning it’s much harder for white to settle. And also loses a future option to peep at S15. Either of wS15 - bS16 - wR15, or wS15 - bS16 - wS13 - bS12 - wR14 would be future possibilities to take advantage of black’s thinness if white becomes strong enough in the area. Playing wR15 right at the start gives up all of this for very litttle in return.


In the instance that white plays s18 josekipedia considers it.


I’ve seen katago consider it as well with s18 played (look at the ai review I mean)

This could be the point actually, if that ability is already gone, it might be a useful move.

Anyway, given that before I commented first there were no variations for this position at all, I find this discussion useful. It would be also useful to update the OGS joseki dictionary with some resources on this if people know of any.

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Ah, sure. But then it seems like OGS joseki dictionary should be discussing the move after bS18, rather than in the original position asked about here. :slight_smile:

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Sure! I was curious about whether s15 was useful since it was mentioned in another ‘joseki’. I’m not sure black playing s18 should be a joseki. Anyway I think you might’ve answered my question though as to why s15 shouldn’t be played in the existing variations though, and that was the question!

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