Does arrogance ruin Go?

Let me be a little bit arrogant as i honestly think you miss a great part of the game by not being interested in comnunicating.

Two players are in a serious game sharing a board for two or more hours trying to put the best in it, their reading their intuition.

And you think they don’thave something to exchange when the game is over?

One day i boosted my fun and as a side effect my level when i started to have a stronger interest in the moves of my opponent even admiration folded by asthounishment.

A game is much more as a path you walk alone.

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I don’t see how anyone is stopping you though. If all you want is play then there’s plenty of opportunity to do so. Most go players only play, I think.

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Does this issue only come up in go, or do you often feel this way when people are giving you advice?

I copy-pasted this from elsewhere on the internet:

Why is it easy to give advice but difficult to receive advice?

In a word: Ego. In part, our ego tries to protect us and keep us feeling good about ourselves. When people give us advice, some interpret the advice as criticism and therefore an attack on “who we are.” Thus, our ego goes into defense mode to protect us from the perceived attack.

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Go originates in countries with a strong martial arts tradition. In these countries, learning from a master is viewed as a great opportunity, and students are thankful to their master for sharing their knowledge, and also are thankful to advanced students for providing advice. I understand that if you live in the West you may have a different point of view. The thing is that most people who play go also adopt this eastern way of thinking, so when a stronger player proposes to review the game, he thinks he’s doing a favor and may not understand that his proposition may offend the weaker player.

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Well that’s an excellent point I guess now I’m ashamed. I still think there are a lot of arrogant people in the Go world. Prove me wrong and be the nicest most humble people in the world.

I didn’t intend to make you feel ashamed. Depending on the context, receiving advice can be difficult for anyone. We all have sensitivities when receiving advice, especially when the advice was not asked for.

That’s not going to be easy when you basically just want to be left alone by go players (except for them putting stones on the board when you’re playing against them). How can a person be nice and humble without any social interaction?

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I am sorry if I expressed myself so badly, as I can’t remember ever being understood in a way so contrary to my intention.

The overarching point is that people who are confident in who they are (because they truly know themselves) cannot be overawed or intimidated by the arrogant. I cited “highly accomplished” people (emphasis added) as an example because they are the ones most likely to have a good self-image and high confidence. However, it is not an exclusive club, and life is not a zero-sum game. Everyone surviving in adult life is accomplished in some way, and as I have already stated, I firmly believe that everyone has the potential to excel at something. The tragedy is that many people don’t realize that and even engage in negative self-talk because they don’t know their own potential or have been abused into thinking badly of themselves. Of course, many people have also had enormous obstacles put in their way. For example:

For two or three years in childhood I had a close friend who had an abusive father and alcoholic mother. The father abandoned them, and his mother took up with another abuser, whom I actually met. They moved away, and I lost contact. I saw him again, however, in high school, where he hung out with a bad crowd and had turned into quite a slob and a slacker. Then in his senior year, he transformed himself, whether on his own or with help I don’t know. I had my last conversation with him at this time and learned that he was in a school-to-work program, spending only about a third of the day in school. In the evenings he was taking classes at a business school of some kind. The curtain falls again for about 40 years, and then he wrote a post, full of good cheer to his schoolmates, on the alumni web site. He had become a very successful businessman, and in his later years became a popular motivational speaker at business conferences. I find his story inspirational because I know so well the road he traveled, and I find validation in it for my belief that everyone is capable of excellence at something.

I also cited the example of “those who have faced death”—not “fighters,” because fighting has nothing to do with it. Everyone might face death at one or more times in their life, and we all do as the end approaches. Doing so is the ultimate sobering experience, because it puts things in a new perspective (so that the childish displays of the arrogant are seen as trivial).

There is no “rest.” I believe “know thyself” is a grayscale journey, not a black and white endeavor. Some (usually the young) have just begun, many are somewhere on the road of self-understanding, and many have reached their destination (although I suppose the journey may go on forever if one continues to probe oneself). At no time have I implied that the OP was unduly resentful and certainly not arrogant. Indeed, I think I agree with the OP more than anyone in this thread. However, even justified resentment is a negative emotion that can be self-defeating, so I think it is helpful to point out a better alternative.

None of this is offered as a scold, but as armor against the arrogant.

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See, you’re doing it again.

The work needed for career and academic accomplishments is separate from the work needed to know ones self.
Self-confidence and knowing yourself are two different things.

I see it’s a deeply rooted belief for you, so I’ll just leave it.

I don’t think go players are more or less arrogant than the rest of the population. Every human group consists of imperfect people, and go players are no exceptions. However, experienced go players are aware of how little they know so I think they can’t be too arrogant when talking about the game.

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Look, I do not like coffee so I do not drink it. But almost everyone else here does, so whenever I go people offer me coffee.

“Would you like a cup of coffee?”
“No, thank you. That’s very kind of you, but I do not drink it.”

And that’s normal. How could they know that I do not like it? It is unreasonable to be annoyed by a nice gesture of someone kindly offering you something you can very easily decline.

Now if the conversation started like this:
“DRINK A CUP OR DIE YOU COFFEE HATING NERD!”

Now, that would have been different :stuck_out_tongue:
But noone offers coffee or Go reviews like that, do they? :wink:

Yes, indeed, but it helps putting things into perspective, which I think is the main issue here in terms of Go ranks.

For example, regardless of how much progress someone has made in the “know thyself” scale, if someone goes “I reached 5 dan in Go, without even doing tsumego” and you are young and impressionable and you do not have much going yet, then that might be impressive and somewhat intimidating.

If someone tells that to me or you, I do not think that it will have quite the same effect. Not because we are such grand people or enlightened philosophers, but because simply we have been through so much more in life that from our perspective we understand that toiling to get a better Go ranking is indeed hard work, but just not that impressive to us.

To get a slightly more “extreme” example, it is a bit like those kids that play League of Legengs that used to call me “a total loser that knows nothing” in the fora, based on the “fact” that they were gold ranked and I was silver.
A lot of younger people there used to get very angry and enraged at such taunts and behaviours, but I didn’t care at all, not because I was somehow better than those kids. Just older. So, I just happened to know that being cocky and arrogant over a LoL rank was not something I would have ever put in my CV :wink:

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Thank you, especially in your last two paragraphs. You have gotten to the heart of it much more succinctly and clearly than I did. I tip my hat to you!

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You people are not proving me wrong. I said I hated reviewing games because I feel like people want to shove their win in my face and that’s all, because obviously it’s not a lesson I’m asking for, and people attack me. They attack me, as if it’s a kind gesture I’m refusing, a fun social thing I refuse to take part of. And they could have a point about it being my ego, but it’s also just that I don’t feel like it. Just because you won this time doesn’t make you a superior player, I could win next time. But you wouldn’t have to sit through me explaining every boring move as if you didn’t understand it.

So we can roughly summarise your view as ‘you are right and everyone else is wrong’. I can live with that.

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I have the feeling that It’s going to hurt you more and more if one day you get some new interests and that’s not my desire.
Better close that discussion.

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By the way, for me reviewing a game is not like one player explains and the other listens, unless one of the players is at least three stones stronger than the other. Reviewing a game is an exchange in which I say what I had in mind, you say what you had in mind, and we both try to find better moves than what we played during the game.

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Even the more as 3 stones stronger player usually check if what i have in mind is really what he think i have in mind.

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I see.
You might find it a bit disappointing, but something else I have learned in all those years in various fora, and I will indeed offer you that knowledge for free (well you did make the topic, so that might dampen the “offensive shock” of this “audacious” endeavor of mine :stuck_out_tongue: ), is that the main point of a forum is not “convincing” people of anything (let alone “proving them wrong”), but discussing a topic and exploring various points of views.

Whether there will be within a discussion enough relevant, useful or new information which someone will read, process and form a new opinion or change their old opinion on said topic, is totally beside the point and is usually considered a “happy by-product”, but never the “goal” itself.

Moreover, said by-product is a ultimately a personal effort and not a collective one.
Just like noone cares if I drink coffee or not, noone cares if you are willing to have a review and learn or not and noone can tell you how you should “feel” about it. All of us have gained insight on how other people think from this discussion. Whether you, particularly, will find those thoughts useful or not, is really not the problem of the people that participated in the topic. That is your choice :slight_smile:

Fora that focus on having people that seek to “convince” people are rarely long-lived due to various reasons not worth analysing here and, in the best of cases, quickly turn into blogs, where the “sermons” can take place without debate.

Anyway, round and round we can go, I have seen this proof/feelings conflating situation endless times and I have indeed learned from the past, so I know exactly how futile this topic has been rendered, if you view it as if you are sitting behind a table with a “prove me wrong” sign like in that meme. :innocent:

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Some proof come unexpectedly in your own experience.

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What a strange thread… I’m feeling rather sad now, although, as @JethOrensin says, there are insights I have gleaned, so I guess it isn’t a total loss.

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Don’t be sad. That wasn’t my intention at all. This game requires a lot of social interaction, and any hierarchy where someone is considered better may have this problem. It’s good to talk about it, and try to be different though. We’re all under a lot of stress anyway with the pandemic. Honestly I loved all your answers.

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