# Does the top left corner being marked as Seki change the result of the game?

I was watching the following game against a bot:

I didn’t notice until it was pointed out to me at the end that the upper left corner is supposed to be seki, but isn’t automatically counted as such. (As a side note: I’m not sure if bots know how to argue these things?).

Anyway I’m curious just for my own understanding of the counting, it’s chinese rules, and I would’ve thought that counting the corner as seki would just reduce the score by 14(?) which is the area if the white stones are captured. Although supposedly it’s counted as 26 points?

There are 12 white stones and 2 dame in the seki. Under Chinese rules, if the white stones are dead, black gets 1 point for each stone and 1 point for each dame for a total of 14 points. If they are alive in seki, white gets one point for each stone, and no one gets any points for the dame for a total of -12 points. The difference between 14 and -12 is 26 points, so the miscalculation caused black to receive an extra 26 points.

1 Like

Does the top left corner being marked as Seki change the result of the game?

This is a misunderstanding. In most rule sets (and specifically, in all area-scoring ones that I am aware of) the concept of mutual life (“seki”) does not even figure. Even life and death need not figure in the rule sets.

A rule set that includes a step of removal of stones prior to scoring necessarily describes a procedure of what to do in case there is no agreement. It must be noted that the judgments of whether a string should be removed or not prior to scoring are (or at least, are supposed to be) a logical consequence of the procedure used in case of disagreement, not the other way.

Put another way: All efficiently computable rule sets (determining “life” and “death” is roughly equivalent to evaluating perfect play) do not define life or seki. Instead these indicate how to arrive at a concussion by playing. It is then the players who agree to skip those steps and jump directly to the eventual result.

??? eh?
can you explain your point so that even a slower individual like me understands? are you saying there is no seki?

1 Like

What marioxcc is saying, and what most players forget/don’t know, is that there isn’t really a strict definition of life and death according to most versions of the rules. Instead, at the end of the game, what the players both agree is dead is dead, and what they agree is alive is alive. What the rules define is a way of reaching a conclusion in one players favor if there is a disagreement (usually, playing it out in a seperate instance where captures and moves dont effect the real game… sorta… it’s a bit more complicated then that)

The point to be drawn from this is that since both players agreed the top left is dead, the current score is the correct one, regardless of the fact that it’s actually seki up there.

1 Like

Even if that is true, it is completely irrelevant to the question being asked here.

The reason i am not convinced it is true is because most people use an operating definition of the correct status that is approximately “The status of all groups if the life and death agreement phase is played out optimally by both players”.