Hmm, all the subtleties, I know… That’s why I mentioned I don’t dare to propose increments of 5 solution. The discussions would last forever. Anyway, the simple proposition that stays right now is to have minimum byo-yomi time in ranked games. And if someone wants to play an absolute time setting, why not use that setting then?
Sorry, I don’t understand what you are talking about.
i dont want teaching lessons lool
i just want to !! (ง ͠° ͟ل͜ ͡°)ง
Can you point to a game like that?
The games I see are 10 seconds plus 1s per byoyomi.
I’m not at all sure about this. Just because you or I can’t play at that speed doesn’t mean it’s not playable.
I can’t play at 10s per move either, or even 30s. Does this mean that no-one else should?
I’m just not sure on what sound basis you can assert that some arbitrary speed “is nothing to do with Go”.
For my purposes, Blitz itself is nothing to do with the Go I play, but where do you draw the line? This is why we used to have different ranks for different speeds: they are different games.
To me, the more appropriate solution is making sure that people know what they are up for. If you can trick someone into a fast game, then that’s wrong. But if the players agree, who’s to argue?
no ^^ no matter how you look at it 1s per move is objectively ridiculous
5s and 10s are playable, but 1s per move is just a clicking contest lol
Completely agree. We should not make the system more restrictive just because it might be abusable. The dream is to get rid of people who would like to trick friends just to increase an arbitrary number. So reporting such players is the best solution to me and keeping the system as full of opportunities as possible.
Maybe we could all agree that such extreme time-settings should be marked red or something similar to make it obvious. That should be enough to make everyone happy maybe?
1s go sounds totally fun to be honest. I’ll probably try that sometimes. Similarly 1*5 goban sounds objectively crazy, but is very fun. You might wanna try that one out :D. Taught me surpsinigly lot.
Why not 0.1 second? 1 second is just arbitrary time resolution, that happens to be used by our civilisation, but that doesn’t mean that’s the only reasonable lower boundary for byo-yomi. I do believe the lower limit is up for discussion, the restriction could be applied to ranked games only.
My favourite byo is 7.5 of a second and honestly I feel discriminated, by not being able to use ‘my’ time settings.
All jokes aside, do you think we should simply ignore the problem?
I suspect the increments of 1s are good for the convenience and readability of the users.
No, as I wrote I suggest reporting the player and propose having extreme time-settings notably marked with color or otherwise. Thus they would be hard to accept accidentaly and thus impossible to use as a cheap trick, and if two conscending people want to play 1s go they totally can. Everyone is happy no need for needless limits and restrictions…
I think I made it clear that I disagree on practicality of 1s increments, but that’s beyond the point right now.
Everybody but the admins who need to be chasing the culprits, and players who suffer from occasional, but continuous unpleasant surprises. Rather than having a simple system, that implements the rules, we use labor… that feels very 20th century to me
i agree with that too though
both opinions are valid
but what is consensual is to :
- make time settings visible in game lobby before game starts
- punish abusers ^^
as for minimum time, maybe its not necessary right now, try to make time settings visible in game lobby and see how things go i would say
I am not sure I understand everything you are typing, but
Seems to me what you are suggesting is the complex system and mine is simple, but whatever, that’s a matter of opinion I guess and not really relevant.
Admins will have to be chasing culprits forever. Restricting time options does not really solve the problem of human nature and people will find another way of cheating easily.
And honestly, if one blindly accepts a game that is marked red and is then surprised that something is weird I think he/she is a fool and actually might be a good lesson for him/her.
so i just checked and today again he won ranked games by time out against GnuGo and Fuego xddddddddddddddddddddd
thats just so ( ͡°( ͡° ͜ʖ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)ʖ ͡°) ͡°)
his game against gnugo, 25k plays better xddd https://online-go.com/game/10732487
man i 'm crying of laugh lool
move 1 : the bot starts tengen
move 2 : he hits the stone directly,
then gets totally dead ^^, but wins thanks to timeout lul
2 dan ^^
Hmm… how is “restrict minimal byo-yomi time setting to 5 seconds for ranked games” a complex solution is beyond me That’s few lines of code at most, anoek could do it before his Monday morning coffee*.
I’m a programmer, and programmers (at least the good ones ) measure the complexity of solution in total time wasted by different people in maintaining/using it.
*) just kidding, you don’t start programming before the coffee
nonono we misunderstand each other . I believe you that the programing would be simple (and to be honest Anoek could probably do it in his sleep), but it’s creating a more complex system than one without such (in my opinion needless) restriction.
In my experience too many restrictions lead to problems, and I just do not see the benefit if it can be solved otherwise.
Let’s do the math over say 5 years of running the service:
- implementation 30 mins ( let’s multiply it by 100 because it’s anoek’s time) - that’s 2 days
- bug fix sometime in the future 30 mins (x100) - that’s 2 days again
- Once a day someone get’s tricked into playing a useless 1 sec per period game.
That’s 5 mins * 365 * 5 = 6 days of lost human’s lifes
- Once a week someone is annoyed enough to report it to admins
That’s 5mins for the report and 10mins for the action - give or take 2 days of precious time
- We are not counting the waste of life of those lads who think that playing 1sec games is funny! (Imagine how much waste is that)
So 8 days vs 4 days. I have my favourite!
Note that the problem here is getting tricked, not the actual period of the game.
At least two people have said that they are interested in playing really fast - at 1sec per turn - so it’s not “useless”.
Let me emphasise that I wouldn’t be able to play that way, but I think testing lightning reactions and seeing you can make better moves than someone else at that speed is a legitimate skill.
Presumably there is also method and strategy: approaches that are simple and lead to knowing what your next move is irrespective of the opponent’s move would be best.
I think focus on avoiding trickery, and a simple solution, would be advisable, rather than arguing over whether 1s per move is legitimate.
I agree with adam and green as jade. The root of the problem is the abuser. I don’t see how increasing the granularity of time setting would help much. (Increased readability is a plus but it can be achieved in other means and abuser and still find a way to abuse the system. )
An analogy would be when you notice that a lot of people are jaywalking, you start merging the road together and decease the number of intersection. It might help a little bit but at the cost of the convinence for everyone else.
then we have to find a way to fix every future problem that arises ^^ (fake komi, hidden handi, flooder, etc etc)
anyways i think we talked about everything on this question, maybe the topic can be closed (but this particular player is farming timeouts again though a warning didnt seem to be enough ^^, time to ̿’̿’\̵͇̿̿\з=( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)=ε/̵͇̿̿/'̿̿ ̿ ̿ ̿ ̿ ̿ him )
But that’s all right. I’m not removing that option. I’m just suggesting to make those games unranked. These games are not related to the general notion of Go skills and therefor skews, rather than builds the ranks for the participants.
I’m astonished by the number of people who are interested in maintaining the status quo. I don’t see my arguments winning in this discussion. But since I honestly believe in the principles of good design, I’ll try to outline few points before unsubscribing from the thread.
- NAP ( no assholes principle )
This is the basic foundation of strong community. If we want to have a strong and growing community around OGS we should reduce the inflow and discourage any behaviours that violate NAP. Newcomers are the easiest prey of As, and every A means potential loss of multiple users and maybe even future Go players.
- Good solutions are simple
You recognise good design if simple things are made simple. If you’d like to play a game, you click once, maybe twice. You don’t need to think, look for clues, hold your breath. If you feel like doing something funky - go ahead, but the regular path should be natural, intuitive and free of silly pitfalls.
- People get used to reality
1 second or 5 seconds from practical perspective doesn’t really matter. If certain solution is given, people will get used to it. After some time no one will remember that at some point it was even possible to play ranked 1 sec byo-yomi games.
- Automate it, obviously.
Good solutions are automatic and don’t involve rules, guidelines, manuals and admin’s judgement. I’ve already discussed the time factor: https://xkcd.com/1205/