How to expand after this joseki

A youtube go teacher advocates this joseki:

Joseki Dictionary

What I struggle with is that if I have stones in the bottom right, then I typically want to build from this joseki towards the centre … P14 would be nice … except this makes a darn Elephant Eye that I’m not wild about.

How should I avoid this dilemma?

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Didn’t know this term so:

P14 is much too close to thickness, maybe better a 2 space jump along the side?

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Your upper right corner is perfectly alive. In general it’s best NOT to expand from that group and play elsewhere.

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Ah hah… asking for Go advice is hard isn’t it, when the whole situation always matters.

The situation I find myself asking this question is:

when all the corners have had their josekis done, it’s approaching mid game

I might have Q9 and S6, as just one possibility, and then I’m looking at it…

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If you want to play something to develope the right side, (instead just tenuking, which is prolly what black should do), i think you could play q15 instead of r14, and then add a move around q10/r10 or something like that.

Or, if developing the right side is important, maybe playing at p17 was already a wrong direction… The p17 variation gives black a good solid corner, but its not great for developing the side ://

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Continuations are indicated on the joseki page

But if you really want to play on the right side, you could play like this

The elephant’s eye is playable too.

(if White cuts then Black can just capture the cutting stone)

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Agree with Koba. This Joseki result is not good for building the right side because the position is so low (3rd line) and youre totally settled. Black is quite happy with the corner points alone. If your R14 stone would be on Q14 it would be slightly different. If black played the last stone on Q15, they would be very thick again.

Personally when I face this Joseki I ignore this side, no matter the color, its uninteresting for both imo. I also adjust my bottom right Joseki in this regards. So imo it may be a direction mistake of you to get in a position where you really want to build this side in first place.

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If you do want to grow the right side after this joseki as black, whilst also preventing white from growing to the centre, then o13 is the usual shape point. Though as others said this joseki ends with a low strong stone so makes the right side boring and you generally shouldn’t want to develop there, at least not until quite some time later and you have a high position a good distance away on right side. Such a move is better if it is not just a territory surrounding move, but has other purposes such as attacking or preparing to attack the white group, or being a moyo boundary (so it’s not just growing your territory but reducing opponent’s, bonus if in sente).

Do you have a game example, then we can see if or when o13 is appropriate.

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Here’s some example from Pro games:

https://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/81618/ move 41, a typical territorial expansion use of the move with the strong position in the lower left: if that was much closer it’d be overconcentrated so you want to be making something as big as this to be efficient. Kim Dongho (6p) vs. Hong Minpyo (9p) | Waltheri's go pattern search similar.

Xie Ke (?) vs. Fan Tingyu (?) | Waltheri's go pattern search move 21 it’s an early time to play it, but that’s because white is overextended on the top side, so this is preparing the attacking invasion that comes next: if black directly invaded white would just jump out at this point or one to the right.

Explore more yourself at Waltheri's go pattern search - find position in pro games

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I constantly find this joseki in my games and I have different issue with it. The corner seems so secure to me that Black can safely tenuki twice:

Black tenuki’s once and the “punishment” is supposed to be this move:

…which, if you follow along as Black, indeed gives a good result to White.

However what happens if Black tenuki’s again? :thinking:
What’s the punishment now?
I do not think that the corner can die or that White can get some great result that would merit ignoring Black’s tenuki any time soon and playing in this area again. Is there a way for that corner to die?

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The corner doesn’t die, but White can block in sente. See on Josekipedia.

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Yes, but is it really that severe a result? Getting two moves elsewhere in the early-mid game, is probably worth a lot more than this. I will try experimenting with that sort of idea in my games and see where it goes.

Yes, because now the white outside group isn’t going to die or get attacked, in the joseki the white group is quite weak and can often become a target or die, even after the extension. In the joksei white o18 isn’t sente on the black corner, which means black can invade the top side (e.g. m18) with the threat to connect there and if white disconnects black doesn’t need to answer but helps the invader and the white group is an eyeless target.

The weakness of the white outside also means moves like the h17 checking extension on the top side are semi-sente, so black answering at r14 means black has better development prospects in the top left area too. Think more about strength of groups, and less about territory. With strong groups new territory can easily appear in natural flow of the game, with weak groups it won’t.

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