instruction to functions "select stones" for scoring

[Shekes]

Is there a page where the functions are explained? I understand some but struggle with others.

There is one I find particularly difficult:
After both players pass, and can approve the score, it says “at this stage players can select…”
How?

Yesterday, I had won a game against a weaker opponent.
After we both passed and the score looked correct, I clicked on “approve” but it looked like it didn’t register. I kept clicking assuming that my touchpad didn’t react or something like that. But then it approved and I had lost by 112 points!

I presume my opponent knew how to use this “select” function (?) very quickly, as the whole thing took less than 10 seconds.

So what did they do?
That’s the game:

Maksym43 vs. Shekes

So today they did it again. I did NOT approve the score, yet they got 357 points…
And they did it fast. Within a few seconds, without my input. I had only approved the initial score.

Maksym43 vs. Shekes

[Conrad_Melville]

Someone score cheated on that game. If it was your opponent, then you can report the game, and it will be annulled.

BTW, never repeatedly click accept in the manner you did. All that does is to reset the scoring clock each time, which delays the automatic timing out of that clock. In other words, it is against your best interests. Of course, if the game is restarted and then comes back to scoring, then you can click the accept again.

[GreenAsJade]

@Shekes

Is there a page where the functions are explained?

Yes, it is here:

The game view and playing games · online-go/online-go.com Wiki · GitHub

@Shekes

After both players pass, and can approve the score, it says “at this stage players can select…”
How?

By clicking on the board if necessary (Most often, it is not necessary, if the players sealed their territories properly before passing)

@Shekes

I kept clicking assuming that my touchpad didn’t react or something like that. But then it approved and I had lost by 112 points!

Were you using the OGS website, or a third party app?

The OGS website disables the accept button after you press it, so you can’t press it multiple times.

It is activated again if the opponent changes the board after you pressed it.

[Shekes]

Thank you for the link! I will explore.

I use a desktop browser on OGS and wasn’t aware that anything else was possible.
And I wonder how that is possible or what the advantage would be?

I assumed that clicking the “Approve” button repeatedly had no effect.

I thought that the clicking didn’t register. It happens sometimes that, when one part of my hand/body/another body etc touches the laptop’s touchpad, there is no input form clicking.

I did not an still do not understand how they did it. The first time it happened I thought that my opponent might have changed the score and then I inadvertently approved it with my clicking.
But the second time, I clicked “Approve” just once and then started looking at the options.
Then within seconds, the score was 350/0 and I had lost.

I’ve been on OGS for a year and I wondered how “select stones” function worked and did click on the board but didn’t understand what it was doing and, obviously, didn’t want to disrupt the process. But I wasn’t too curious because I never needed to change the score.

Surely it should not be possible to abuse this function like that. I always thought that, if the “select stones” function was ever needed, both players would have to consent to the result.
I’d say it is a problem.

[GreenAsJade]

It is supposed to be the case that both players have to consent to the result, within a sensible amount of time (this varies based on the game clock setting, but is visible and counting down during select stones phase. It is reset when someone changes the selected stones).

[Shekes]

Unfortunately, I don’t remember the game clock setting. It may have been a blitz. But I think that the score was changed and it said “black wins” in under 10 seconds.
I wonder does it mean that I now have to learn how to counter these cheating attempts in under 10 seconds…

I just like playing, perhaps chatting about the game or where my opponent might be. But I am not too curious about the functions. That is why I never found the page you linked me to I guess.

It is logical that there would be plenty of “IT-oriented” characters on a go site, nerds with no life and wannabe hackers. I happen to be interested in playing only. It’s only entertaining if that happens once in 2000 games as it did for me for now. But I wouldn’t appreciate having to learn how to hectically click system buttons that I never had any use for in the first place.

[GreenAsJade]

@Shekes

I wonder does it mean that I now have to learn how to counter these cheating attempts in under 10 seconds…

If someone clicks the wrong score onto the board, and you end up auto-accepting it, report the game (as Conrad said) because this may be deemed “score cheating”.

The moderators will assess whether that’s in fact what was going on (based on all the info they can see about what happened and the players’ history).

But it shouldn’t be a suprise that in a blitz game you have to decide the score quickly, I guess

You do have a full 10s (or whatever is allocated) to accept or change it.

[Shekes]

I reported it when they did it the second time. I hope the moderator will explain to me what I need to do next time, or change something in the options.

I disagree that I have to “decide quickly”. I had decided quickly: I have approved the score as the system estimated it to be and that was final: I approved that initial score and no other.

If there is an option to do that, it’s solved. Otherwise it is clearly a flaw. I am here to play a game that is thousands years old and not to compete in manipulating a system that will be gone/changed next year.

I’ve spent quite some time learning DOS at some point. A lot of good it did me.

Anyway, that rant is rather for the moderator. I gave them the link. Thank you! I think you answered my question as good as you could. Happy New Year!

[Conrad_Melville]

@Shekes

I hope the moderator will explain to me what I need to do next time,

The fastest was to deal with score cheating (prohibited alterations of the correct score) is to click the autoscore button. The system will rescore the board as before.

[Shekes]

The system announced I lost the game. Are you saying that I can do something after that??

The moderator didn’t explain anything to me. And, strictly peaking annulling the games is still not quite fair. I had won the games

[Conrad_Melville]

No, I was only giving advice about the best way to handle score cheating in the immediate moment. For technical reasons discussed in many past threads, cheated games can only be annulled. We all wish that were not true, but it is the current reality.

[Shekes]

There was no option to click autoscore. I clicked on approve and seconds later I lost.
IMO it is a flaw/hole.

[Eugene]

I had a look at the game log.

You are not telling the whole story in your post.

The sequence of what happened is nowhere near as simple as you make out.

In the first game, you clicked “accept” 4 times, including twice on the wrong score.

Your opponent was score cheating, and it may not have been possible for you to achieve a correct score as a result (if your opponent keeps clicking the score wrong what can anyone do?)

It is possible they were a complete beginner and unaware how to score, or equally likely they are a cheat who needs to be reported so we can do something about it.

In which case as Conrad says, you report the game and move on.

The game log (which is very detailed about what each person does and when) does not show any sign of a bug in this game.

[Shekes]

Perhaps you should read my post prior to answering.

Didn’t I say that he first time I kept clicking on the button? Read it!
Did I say “bug” anywhere on this page at all? Read it!

And that: “It is possible they were a complete beginner and unaware how to score”

• is NOT possible.
  I reported 3 games not 2. No need to view the log to see that. That is why I asked my opponent in the first game what they did.

(A game started now while I was answering here so I couldn’t finish my comment and have to edit.)

I didn’t ask what to do about it or whether or not I should “move on”. That is not what my post is about.

If you had read it, you would have understood that what I was asking is how exactly they did it and how I can counteract it.

So far, neither question has been answered. It is a flaw IMO. Understand? A F L A W
Because it introduces a competition in manipulating the OGS system and has nothing to do with go.

Your comment is as patronizing as it is unnecessary.

[Eugene]

Ah - that was my mistake, missing your comment about hitting it repeatedly.

Maybe don’t do that

The thing is that there is always a short delay between what you do and what we see. In that time, we can have sent new information to you, that you haven’t looked at yet.

Also - unless there is a bug - you can’t accept again if the board hasn’t changed. The button is disable when you press it.

You can only accept again if the board has changed. So mashing that button is a bad idea.

Here is what it looks like to our server (in reverse time order):

→

→

What we see (bottom right) is that after the auto-score, you accepted. Then your opponent set the score wrong.

THEN you accepted again!

This all happened within 3 seconds - hardly enough time for either of you to actually have looked properly.

Then your opponent changed the score again! At this stage, from a moderator standpoint, it looks like cheating. Your opponent is clicking vast areas dead that are alive.

Then you accepted again.. and it repeats.

I think the moral of the story is perhaps to make sure that the board is the way you want it to be before pressing accept, and don’t press again unless the board has changed and is correct.

And do report score cheating if you see it.

Thanks.

[Shekes]

You still didn’t read my post. In the second game I clicked on “approve” just once and lost by 350 points.

Again and again and again: is a FLAW in the OGS system.

Please quite telling me to click or not to click or to report or to move on!

I have so far reported nearly every “disconnector” and otherwise timewaster, some 20 times in 1 year.

Again and again and again: it is not about that. It is about how they did it and how to counteract that.

How hard is to understand that???

The fact that I am a beginner in go and don’t know all the functions on your website doesn’t give you the right to treat me with such annoying arrogance. I am very likely older than you, more experienced and smarter. Stop insulting my intelligence, accuse me of doing something wrong and either read the post and deal with the issue or stop wasting my time!

[Eugene]

I’m sorry if interacting with me is frustrating, and that I come across as arrogant.

People do find this, and I try my best to remedy it.

My intent is genuine: to help you use the system more enjoyably, and to fix flaws in OGS, if this is possible.

I went to the trouble of sharing what your first game looks like from the OGS system perspective.

I’ve focussed on the first game only because there is plenty of information there to help understand what is going on.

If you could put aside your irritation with me and have a look at the flow of events, I think it would be helpful.

Maybe we can find what the problem really is.

The thing that you need to see is that: from OGS perspective you accepted a (cheated) board position that your opponent selected.

Based on the logs that I shared, what you ought to have seen is this:

1. The game went into stone removal, and you were presented with the auto-score guess at the score. (Bottom right of the screenshots I pasted “auto score updated”

2. You accepted this (First board thumbnail bottom right, 11:49:50)

3. The “Accept” button was disabled after you clicked it (this is what is supposed to happen)

4. Your opponent marked some stones dead, your board and score was updated ( second thumbbnail bottom right, 11:49:53)

5. The “Accept” button was re-enabled (this is clear, since you pressed it again)

6. You pressed it again (third thumbnail bottom right: 11:49:55)

At this point you had accepted a wrong score. Your opponent could have accepted as well, but they were too busy clicking on the board marking stones dead. The subsequent events show them marking stones dead and you accepting them.

What would be most helpful is if you can share what your experience of this was.

Did you see the score updating and the board changing? Did you realise that if the “Accept” button is enabled after you already clicked it then there is a new score to accept?

If there is a flaw we need to understand these details to rectify it.

[Shekes]

OK. I will try to put my irritation is aside.

Just please try to understand that ALL the necessary information and my questions are PERFECTLY articulated in my original post! Thus, as far as I am concerned, except for the link GreenAsJade pasted in his first comment, the entire thread is due to people volunteering information and advice that is trivial, obvious and/or unnecessary and a waste of my time.

SO: I clicked “approve” repeatedly in the first instance but not in the second.
I would say that what you should to do now is take a look at what happened in the second game and we should know what the flaw is.

If you would do that for me please!

PS: I reported a third such instance of score cheating by the same offender, but their opponent was “sinor” and, since the game was annulled, I am unable to find it. But may be you can.

[Eugene]

The logs of the second game are more complex because you and your opponent clicked on things at precisely the same time.

The way it unfolded was that your opponent changed the board while you were accepting the first time.

This means that by the time you had accepted, the board was already changed.

As a result, your acceptance (of a different result) couldn’t end the game.

The opponent continued to mess up the score, then walked away. The stone removal phase later timed out with the last score that they placed on the board.

So this is “a result messed up by score phase cheating”. I don’t think there’s anything a “system” could do about it. We have to take the board updates from each player and ask the other player if they agree. If the players fail to agree it times out… what else could happen?

Score cheating is unfortunately something we encounter, especially in low ranks were people are just “mucking around seeing if they like the game”. We do our best to minimize it. We haven’t found a way to have a system that is cheat-proof - you could call that a flaw.

The way we handle it is to take reports when it happens, manage the cheater, and annull the cheated games.

You can also block players, so you don’t have to play them again - this can quickly get you away from any cheats you’re encountering.

[Shekes]

But it IS a flaw. It is pretty much the definition of what a flaw is!

Again: my post was not a complaint. I never demanded for the flaw to be remedied and I don’t even care if the game was annulled. I just wanted to understand how they did it and how to counter it. So no need to console me and explain that it will keep happening. I don’t really care. If we were competing for some sort of a a prize, then it would matter. But we don’t, it doesn’t happen often, and even if it did it would only affect my ranking.

Usually I block players who annoy me with “disconnection’
(That is another idiotic and also absolutely pointless trick that is much more common and much more annoying: the opponent appears “disconnected”, but when you check their profile you realize they started another game. I reported and blocked many of those. But I also wonder how they do it.)
I didn’t even block this score cheater because I was actually curious about them; if they’ll do it again, how they do it, whatever else they’ll do and who they might be demographically speaking. For some reasons I think that it is likely a teenager and more likely male.

So this thread was never meant to be a complaint or criticism, and starting it I was not irritated. I was curious and rather amused. I was only maybe a bit annoyed with myself for not being able to prevent it the second time. Because I did expect they would do it. But I found it rather funny and stimulating, it broke the routine.

What seriously irritated me was that people kept misinterpreting my impeccably articulated report and questions: poor reading/understanding skills. And you did worst on that one. Everything was in the post, the whole story, and you couldn’t miss any comments because there was never any need to read any.

Now:
Your account of the second game surprises me. I do usually look at the score prior to approving it, except for when I clearly lost maybe. Too much time has passed now so I can’t be certain what had happened. But I am actually pretty sure that I approved the correct score. My most post says so and I trust myself to be accurate.

I guess the only way for me to learn that trick and how to counter it is to open a second account, challenge myself to a game and try cheating the score.

I am not sure if I completely understand why the flaw can’t be remedied. But I take your word for it.
What I wonder is why the function is even necessary. In the 2000 games I’ve played I haven’t encountered a situation where I felt that the initial score was incorrect.
But, if I play around with that function, I might at least figure out how it works and why it can’t be improved.

Thank you for looking at the logs! You don’t need to concern yourself with this any further, not for my sake anyway.