It's not yours if you can't capture it

A related but different position:


The surprising result in this case is that with optimal play, black lives in the top left!
More details here.

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Not so surprising anymore thanks to this thread. :sunglasses:

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Hmm but is it also only that case under Chinese rules? Because under Japanese rules top left will be treated as dead locally.

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Yes, under Japanese rules top left is dead and top right is seki. Both sides could pass immediately, or black could choose to add a move at H7. Neither side wants to start the top right ko.

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In any rules 3 white stones at bottom right are completely dead and the top right corner is seki.
Black plays N12, then kills bottom right. If white responds N13 white is dead.

Doesn’t black N12, allow for white L13 and then K12?

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Sorry. It is my mistake.
You are right.
Thank you.

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The Japanese rules do have a similar rule to the thread title, but with an extra clause:

Article 7. Life and death

1. Stones are said to be "alive " if they cannot be captured by the opponent, or if capturing them would enable a new stone to be played that the opponent could not capture. Stones which are not alive are said to be “dead .”

However, I think the key difference is it is considered locally rather than globally, though this isn’t explicitly stated (but can be inferred from the commentary and the ko rule in confirmation phase) .

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