Jigo implementation / bug not even assigned

#1

People have been complaining for nearly a year about the scoring bug that doesn’t recognize a drawn game (jigo) in scoring systems with integer komi.
It appears from https://github.com/online-go/online-go.com/issues/657 that this bug is not even assigned to anyone. It’s just being ignored. I have to ask myself why I moved from KGS to OGS and became a “site supporter”.

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#2

Because we have a better sense of humor? :smiley: Does KGS even support more rulesets by the way (out of curiosity)?

To start with excuses: Only on github there are over 200 recorded issues and we have but one developer (who I suspect has another list of internal issues). Naturally everybody cares more about different stuff, so in the end it is mostly up to the aforementioned dev to decide what is more important.

Now the jigo issue only really comes into play under NZ rules. Otherwise custom (and thus integer) komi is only possible in unranked games where the result does not really matter. Therefore the problem only really applies to NZ rules games that ended in jigo, which I suppose is rather rare (although I do know about some examples).

That does not make it right of course, but it may explain why other issues got prefferential treatement. That’s about my best guess. I can try asking anoek whether or not it might be a simple fix, but if it is more complicated than we think (reuqiring some change to the scoring algorithm itself for example) I am afraid it might still be postponed for other issues. And I actually think that it is the correct approach, being a free service (well even if we weren’t) we cannot solve all problems at once, so we should try and focus on the problems that impact the most users.

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#3

Quite possibly. For Round Robins and McMahon tournaments it will become necessary to allow 1/2 points for draws. In elimination tournaments a rematch seems the only viable option so I guess there’s related coding in a few directions.

Afterthought: What happens currently if a ranked tournament game is ruled a draw by a mod?
Has it ever happened in a significant tournament? It is possible under the usual Japanese rules.

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#4

Usually people yell at us :smiley: Your observation seems quite logical and correct. We cannot really “draw” a tourney game. One player is always deemed a winner anyway.

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#5

He’s on to us, folks.

The jigo is up.

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#6

What happens if triple ko occurs in tournament using Japanese rules?

Japanese rules officially declares that as a no result (essentially annulled, and NOT a tie), and the game would have to be replayed if a decisive result is needed.

How would OGS handle that?

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#7

Yes, KGS supports 4 rulesets: AGA, Chinese, Japanese and New Zealand, and handles drawn games correctly.

KGS does have a few minor annoyances, so other things being roughly equal, I’d prefer OGS. But the scoring bug isn’t “minor”, so as of now, I’ve returned to KGS for actual game playing.

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#8

As AdamR pointed out, there are “priorities” in the development of the site, and there is only one guy that really works on most of that. It seems that I am failing to understand why you are so frustrated with something this little. Everyone and their brother plays with a certain extent of komi and there is good reason for this. Perhaps you can try to explain specifically why you are such a fan of this “integer komi.” I am not against this idea, I believe it should be fixed at some point, it is just really important to realize there are other priorities with the site. On the other side, if this bug does turn out to be a simple fix, then there probably shouldn’t be any reason not to get it taken care of soon. :grinning:

Cheers,
Mr. GoBoard

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#9

Fair enough, that is if course your choice.
If you want we can send you an e-mail once the issue gets fixed.

Honestly no idea, never had to rule such a thing so far :smiley: I guess players can just pause the game, play another one, and then decide the original one based on that, but I don’t think OGS system would handle it by itself.

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#10

Great! Yes please.

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#11

I think higher ranked player should lose when jigo happens if draw is not supported by system.

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#12

That seems to be quite a cumbersome work-around to deal with the system not being able to handle all cases the could arise within the commonly used Japanese rules, however, granted these situations are incredibly rare, of course. If it’s not already there, perhaps figuring out how to handle these situations more gracefully should be one of the 200 open issues on GitHub.

Allowing ties by jigo would naturally beg another feature to be added: give the players some sort of mechanism to offer and accept a draw (to avoid having to play it out and go to scoring).

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#13

Why is there only one developer? Wasn’t it originally a team of two? That makes me worry about the “bus factor” for this site.

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#14

Isn’t the title of this topic misleading? As far as I can see only two of the issues on github are assigned.

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#15

What’s a “bus factor”?

Oh - google told me: what happens if anoek is run over by a bus? AFAIK matburt is still out there, just not actively developing at the moment.

So someone at least has keys to the shop.

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#16

Cause it’s still better than KGS.

Also you can observe half-points in action here: https://online-go.com/tournament/2459

I also love how our community became distributed library of knowledge about the site. No one knows everything but each individual holds some bits of information often unknown to others.

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#17

Considering the result is always B+0, that is technically the status quo.

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#18

Well granted, it was a simplification on my part. Matburt still helps out, but we have one who can afford to work on the site on some regular basis.

Hahaha, right? :smiley:

Well, no argument there. It’s the best I could think of currently, not saying it is ideal. There are several parts of tournament system that are awaiting improvements.

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#19

I think it would be great to see this issue attended to. But I feel the same way about a truck load of potential improvements for the site. Considering how few people are affected by this (and this is coming from someone who creates all of their personal games using NZ rules), it really shouldn’t be a priority. NZ rules aren’t exactly popular at the moment.

Off Topic
I would love to see anoek switch to a Ransom Model of developing. People could throw money at the issues they want and whatever has the most cash behind it is what anoek works on. So in a situation like this, if somebody cared enough they could just ensure the feature gets developed immediately by throwing money at it. That would be beautiful from a user viewpoint and potentially quite lucrative from a developers :money_mouth_face:.

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#20

Bus is meant in a broad metaphorical sense. Some people call it lottery factor, like what happens if the key people win the lottery and quit the project? Or what happens if they get an amazing job offer that they can’t refuse, but have to abandon the project.

I think for anyone who cares about OGS thriving in the long run, it’s a very pertinent concern.

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