Jigo implementation? ✅

Thanks for mentioning that, it makes things clearer.

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I just played a game with NZ rules, with NZ standard komi of 7.0, where the result was “Black wins by 0 points”, each having 184 points after komi.

This is clearly just wrong, and should be fixed. The result was Jigo, and should be recorded as such.

More generally I don’t understand why internet Go servers unnecessarily introduced the idea of 0.5 komi for handicap games, an idea which has perniciously spread to real life play so that newcomers to the game now think it is the “correct” standard. I would go further: I approve the 7.0 komi in even games; once agin - spelling intended - the NZ rules are the most logical and aesthetically pleasing. When komi was originally introduced in Japan it was necessary in knockout tournaments for each game to have a clear winner (and no doubt the newspaper sponsors wanted “a result”) hence the extra 0.5 arbitrarily added to the White player. But a draw is a Good Thing, particularly in friendly games, but actually also in Swiss tournaments because a half-point score increases the number of groups making the draw very slightly fairer, and most definitely for ratings systems (a jigo surely indicates the two players are of equal strength)!

Since the clear conclusion from AI play is that 7.5 (Chinese, 6.5 Japanese) komi is too large, it would be very interesting to see what AI would make of a 7.0 komi.

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See also: https://forums.online-go.com/t/jigo-implementation-bug-not-even-assigned/

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Check out this thread: forums.online-go.com/t/katago-7-komi-self-play-games/

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Implementation of jigo is surely interesting but my guess is it’s a complicated task considering rating and such. Maybe if more people manifest their interest… (I do).

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Maybe one can say it does in Go, but draws in chess really kill that game. Draws by stalemate, draws by perpetual check, draws by repetition, draws by no capture for 50 (75?) moves.

Fix the bug in saying Black winning by 0 points instead of jigo sure, but I’m not really sold on draws in Go. Surely we should play on an even size board too, 18x18, 16x16, 20x20 if we really want to encourage draws so both players can in theory get half the board?

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Many thanks for that link Maharani, absolutely fascinating stuff. It looks like 7.0 is indeed very close to the “correct” komi (possibly 6.98 ? :wink: ) It really needs automatic implementation and a few zillion games on a couple of AI’s for confirmation, but your commentary is very enjoyable.

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Not really sure why you’d need an even sized board if you have odd komi?

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No, the impact on rating is not complicated. AFAIK, Elo-like rating systems were first introduced for Chess, which has a far higher frequency of draws than Go will ever have, so they dealt correctly with draws from the start.

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A nice. And how it works with tournaments system?

Draws in draughts (checkers) kill the game, but that is only because they are so overwhelmingly frequent that the game becomes boring; but they do show that the game rules are “fair” in that the first player does not have an advantage. Draws in Chess result mostly from illogical rules rather than indicating a lack of initial advantage for one side. But draws in Go are relatively rare and I at least find psychologically satisfying. I have always felt an advantage of Go over Chess is that one can lose a game of Go and still come away happy, how much happier for both sides if it is a draw! As for ratings systems, a draw is trivial to implement and should already be in there, and is gives a truer indication of relative ranks.

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Hate to bring this up again but DGS has jigo and their rating system handles it fine. Just saying…

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Groin, Chess tournament directors will tell you that a draw is a good result from the points of view of making the draw for the next round in a Swiss tournament because it increases the number of Swiss groups, and a majority of Go tournaments these days use the Swiss system (of course a preponderance of draws would not be good from the TD’s point of view, but that is not going to happen in Go). For a knockout you do indeed need a decisive result in order to determine opponents for the next round, so there you would keep the extra 0.5 points in the komi.

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I used to think an advantage of Go over chess was the 0.5 komi meaning no draws :slight_smile:

The odd komi is also a bit arbitrary. If we’re basing it on currently available bots, in theory one could have better bots come along and decide later that really 6 komi is the best and so are 6-4 points to open with. Who knows really, only that for now bots are still super-human, except in special cases involving mirror go I hear :slight_smile:

You are forgetting the komi has to be odd for Chinese rules

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Pleased to say that this issue is already on Github development site: Jigo / tie / draw is not recognized by OGS · Issue #657 · online-go/online-go.com · GitHub

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I’m not really forgetting, because the komi being odd also sounds a bit arbitrary. I can’t imagine the game of Go being dysfunctional with area scoring, just because the komi was an even number.

Maybe there’s some argument to be made about various sekis and changing the komi? Can’t you just play with an agreed komi though no? Score it as it is?

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If there’s komi and the japanese rule is by default and most players (on western servers at least for what I know) use it, it’s simply from historical reason: Japanese players did a lot to spread go to the west.With my due respect ,a few decades later it’s just normal that players get some distance of this starting by the choice between different rules.