Oh yes, I’m sure OGS caused people to not like handicaps but not dislike them, by setting no handicap as the default for many years.
There’s probably no real issue then if we’ve only made people not like it.
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benjito mostly explained my thinking, but note I’m not claiming with the handi-off default OGS was making everyone not like handicaps, and in say real-life clubs where handicap games are normal everyone likes them. Of course there’s some variation in both, but I do think the default moves the population distribution. Making handicaps on means people think it’s normal, get used to playing them so they aren’t weird, and will then realise how they can make people of different strengths have a competitive game.
I think most people do prefer even games to handicap games in general, assuming they have a similar-strength opponent to play that even game with. The key thing is what to do if the only person you can play is 5 ranks stronger than you: do you play even or handicap?
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I would prefer even.
But because people that are under influence of handicap tradition are everywhere, it’s problematic to get even game in real clubs. OGS has many users, so it’s much easier, but if % of handicap games would become too big, it would become hard to get even game in online too.
Shure you would. And maybe the person 5 stones stronger than you is kind enough to play the game. Unfortunately he doesn’t have to think at all. Maybe he is reading “In Search of Lost Time” by Marcel Proust during the game to get himself entertained.
But from time to time he might want to play a game which is a challenge for him.
Then it is a nice gesture to return the favor and play a game with handicap with him.
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I think handicap games are more like a torture rather than a challenge.
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I’m not very good at high handicap games, last time I played with 9 stones against someone 18k weaker I was behind until way past move 200, until I found a weakness and finally won by about 10 points. So for me, dividing handicap by about 2 is good enough to get a game which challenging for White, while Black still has chances of winning.
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Being able to play with handicap is what sets Go apart from many other games. And it’s a part of its long history. It should be encouraged. It does change the game for white but it’s also a skill to master. On Pandanet it seems to be a custom. I like that.
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On KGS the handicaps were on by default and no one wanted to play without the proper handicap (by proper I mean number of stones = server rank difference). Then OGS became the new most-used western server, handicaps were off by default, and no one wanted to play with handicap. That’s a bit too much of a coincidence.
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I’m not sure what else to say.
There’s the usual correlation causation.
There’s also factors like we don’t have as many strong players hanging around, they tend to hit a certain level and go play even games on Fox, and then recommend everyone else to do the same.
I think a lack of review culture can also be an issue. I might play a handicap game with a strong player, because as others said, the game might be closer for a while, so maybe a challenge for the stronger player, and maybe they’ll help review it after.
Now you can review with AI after every game, and strong players aren’t necessarily incentivised to stick around playing handicap games when there’s also readily available even games on Fox.
But we don’t discuss how Fox could similarly be seen as promoting a dislike not like of handicap games (except maybe no Komi).
Going back to the main reason for the change, lack of games, I think the change has been a success and should be kept.
Just an observation: Before the change, it was common to have threads in the forum complaining about “Automatch is broken, I’ve been waiting for minutes and nothing happens”. After the change those posts have disappeared.
Now this thread points out that not everyone likes handicaps as a default. That’s a good trade off:
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Having games is a good first experience. You may always later change your preference in games.
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Not having games is a bad first experience. You may never realise that with other settings you could get games.
However, OP pointed out the issue that people cancel their games because they didn’t understand they selected a game with handicap. To counter this, the UI should simply make it more clear to players what their current selection is.
That’s a path to an improvement, rather than reverting to the older bad experience.
Wouldn’t that be much better?
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Fox has a so much larger player base they can find you an equal(ish) strength opponent quickly without needing to widen the player pool to where handicap is appropriate:
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Honestly the default doesn’t bother me either. Handicap on or off, if I don’t want to play with certain settings I’ll change them.
Another option than changing the default is to, as you said, make it clearer to players why they’re getting so many games that they keep cancelling (highlight the handicap setting).
Other than that, while we can send them warnings and hope that works, maybe we can put in a soft timeout for searching for games, requiring you to change your settings if you cancel X games in a row.
In a Go club, when I’m the stronger player, I just do whatever the other player wants. If they want an even game and want to chat about coding or AI or whichever while playing I don’t mind.
That can be with a 10 rank difference or higher, like a new player that wants to see how an even game plays. I just take it easy on them, leave some stones and weakness that they can exploit and capture, and I can always just play better the next game round. It doesn’t bother me to win or lose against newer players; it’s more that they find something fun and interesting about Go.
If they want a competitive game with the appropriate handicap then I do that.
I regularly take handicap as the weaker player, if that’s what the stronger player wants. I’m not against playing with handicap.
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Anecdotally: I used to have more of a “handicap stones bad” attitude but feel like I appreciate them more now after having a few games with stronger and weaker players through automatch. It feels worth it, in order to have fair/fun games across ranks.
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Same for me, but I still advise to use handicap. Usually accepted in the next game if not in the first.
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I am fortunate enough to play every month or two in Tokyo. Handicap is very much the norm there, and with the outcome of every game a coin flip, I find the pressure less, the atmosphere more friendly. In addition, I find myself developing different skills depending on the handicap, making myself a more rounded player. I now think of the handicap game as the “real” game, and I think we should try to develop that culture here.
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