Repost: To become a master of Go is not easy, but to become an amateur 5D or 6D is not hard

Returning to the topic - it’s obviously a question of what you read “hard” to mean.

I take the assertion as meaning that the author thinks that “if you follow this simple recipe, the result will follow”.

Something that is “hard” in this context is something for which there is no recipe. So we can take is that the author does not have a recipe to become a Pro, so becoming a Pro is “hard”.

But the author has a recipe for becoming an amateur Dan, and asserts that it is “simply” a matter of following the recipe.

The recipe may involve hard work, but that can be seen as “a different thing”.

Therefore, I don’t find the assertion offensive. And I have no evidence to show that if I followed the “simple” recipe then I would not be a dan, so I can’t declare that it must be wrong.

Just because am too lazy or unwilling to dedicate the time (which I am) does’t change this.

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The point is that ranks don’t exist in isolation, they refer to performance relative to the population. In this case the population isn’t “4 other members”, but 7147 other active members. So no, you can’t just throw numbers out there.

The second problem would be that there’s no such thing as a free lunch. If someone gets to 5d, he took someone’s points to get there. If the only way to get to 5d is to play other 5d/6d etc evenly, then there is a natural limit to the number of 5ds for any given N players. There is only one tip of the ELOberg.

I think the most benevolent interpretation of OOP’s post is “there is nothing special (read: innate talent) to becoming Tygem ~6d, all it takes is years of hard work.”

Of course the hidden truth (as I’ve stated in my posts above) is that “anyone could (only) become 6d if he worked hard for years, provided that the vast majority doesn’t do the same

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Yep is not hard if you work hard :slight_smile:

However, I contradict you a little about the rank points, because there are two things to consider, one is the actual rank, were is true what you say, and one is actual strength. And the guy I assume it talks about strength.

Re-reading the recipe, I realize that I have either no proof for saying that is hard. The guys who studied hard may have wasted time in the wrong way. they studied josekis. (I bought the books, lend to them, they studied, and I learned playing with them, because I am too lazy to study :slight_smile: )

So we may put this thread to work. Let make a list of those willing to really learn, and follow the recipe, and see if the recipe is true or not. I may bet that most of those starting on that path will quit, because is hard. And maybe will be proved that is even impossible, not only hard, if someone with will but not the right wetware will try.

They will quit because the recipe asks for hard work, not because it is hard to do :wink:

These appear to me to be subtly different things.

It’s like growning big biceps is not hard. Just lift lots of weights often in the right way. But that is hard work. Anyone can do it… but I have small biceps …:smiley: and I’m DDK :cry:

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Finally I get it, is as easy as beating AlphaGo, and everybody else also. Just do better moves. Of course it may be hard for you to do so without a better cluster of computers and better neural networks and some really smart people to make them work, but this is just a different thing. A subtle different thing :slight_smile:

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I’m sorry, but I can’t actually understand what your point was - I’m finding the smiley ambiguous as to what you’re smiling at.

If you can’t see the difference between an instruction that can be easily followed correctly, like “lift some weights every day using this technique” or “do some tsumego this way every day” and an instruction that doesn’t provide a how-to-do-it - like “just do better moves”, then it seems you will not be able to see the subtly that I am trying to highlight.

Suffice to say that purely in my opinion, it is not outrageous to say that “It is hard to become a pro because there is no recipe I can give you. On the other hand if you do this hard work, it is not hard to become a dan: the recipe is simple”.

Whether or not it is true that following the recipe will deliver the result is a different question.

GaJ

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I guess this is another example of skill vs. talent.

Talent without skill can only take you so far, usually less far than skill without talent.

Skill requires hard work. Anyone can do the hard work, but not everyone will do the hard work (paraphrasing from smurph above).

So, I guess, talent brings recognition (understanding the principles of the game quickly and rising through the lowest ranks), skill brings achievements (dan levels), but only talent paired with skill brings excellence (pros).

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The discussion has somehow gravitate to what is easy or hard.
It is about trying to convince you that its all about tsumego.

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First, the title is just a nice word play meant to attract the reader. For it to work it is needed a little exaggeration. If instead of 5-6 dan is said, 15-16 kyu, than is true and the funny part goes away. So the title is meant to be taken as a joke not as a truth. You read it, smile, and Go away, reading the article too, or ignoring it. Now, some people may get offended by the exaggerated part, and I said that I understand why. On the other hand some may fall in love with the title and try to prove the opposite. I mean they try to prove that is true, and no bit of exaggeration there. And now the things gets complicated because is no simple math here, so there is room for interpretation and cheating. Even in simple math can be done this. 1 plus 1 equal 2. No, the stubborn says, 1 husband and 1 wife equal 3 family members, or 4 or whatever they want and can.

So, when somebody tries to put in equation that thing like you know, actually is about how complicated is the recipe, not to actually became 5 dan, is just simple cheating. The title is crystal clear. To become a 5 dan amateur, is not hard. It does not say, here is an easy recipe to became 5 dan. For the latter is room for interpretation. Some may say that the recipe is easy, as is clearly stated, and some steer the easy notion to the action of becoming 5 dan.

Others may try to cheat comparing the hard part with something harder, like becoming an astronaut who walked the space. You know, out there are only few hundreds who has done that, but 5 dan or stronger are many thousands. So, not hard, not as hard as going to space.

I hope you understand my point now.

So we fall in a hard debate because some did not got the joke, and got offended, and others did not got the joke either, and try to prove that there is no joke. .

And as a conclusion of my contribution to this debate I add here a link to an interview https://explorebaduk.com/2019/03/24/imagine-your-life-is-on-the-game-interview-with-hajin-lee-3p-haylee, where Hajin Lee 3 p states that…

Q: How hard is it to become a Go professional player?

A: It’s hard to become a strong Go player in the first place, because no matter how smart or intelligent you are, you have to devote many years to study Go. Once you reach that skill level, it is still hard to pass the pro qualification because the competition is tough. But I would still say the former is harder and more important part than the latter.

So, now we have two statements, one is of the recipe provider who states that becoming a 5 dan is not hard, and of of the Haylee, that becoming a strong player is even harder than becoming a pro (For those confused I mention that in this statement are two parts, and a part is compared with the other. It is not compared the whole with a part of it.)

Whilst I don’t necessarily agree with this advice, I thought it had a number of helpful resources and might be useful to someone. So I’ve taken the liberty of proofreading it to make it more accessible, especially to ESLs.

The following is taken from the OP post, which in turn quotes from a Chinese website.


I saw many friends in the forum complaining they can’t make progress. I will share my self-taught experience about how I improved from Tygem 2d to 8D.

Before discussing the details, I have to point out several points about study quality and study will.

1. Study quality
No matter whether you do tsumego or play games, without quality it’s insignificant. We can see some some Internet players who have played thousands of games, but still stay at kyu-level or low dan. This is because of study quality.

2. You should know the right way
If you study method is proper, you can avoid detours. I have played Go since the late 1980s and have had many detours, and wasted lots of time. I remember I would hold a joseki dictionary and memorise the contents. I could repeat every variation from memory to my satisfaction. After I improved some years later, I knew it had been a detour, and had wasted many years.

3. Strong-willed study
To be a Tygem 8d is not hard, but you need to play a lot. If you use all your free time on the game, to go from Tygem 2d to 8d needs three years at most. If you don’t want to sacrifice too much of your free time, it needs five years at most.

When you wake up, you should be thinking of Go; even when you visit your friend’s home, take a Go book; when you are idle, hold a Go book; if you do such then three years later you will be an 8d.

There are three main domains of study: 1) do tsumego 2) play matches 3) view kifu of masters.

About tsumego:

Tsumego is very, very important for a Tygem 2d. Two points should be emphasised:

1. Quantity
When you see a Go book, just buy it. Even if it is an easy book, you can keep it for your kids or students. Buy two sets of the classical tsumego books: one for everyday use (which can become dishevelled and fall to pieces) and another to keep as a clean reference.

2. Quality
Don’t do a tsumego only once. You should view it repeatedly, until you are clear of every variation in your mind. There is a difference between solving a tsumego slowly and solving it in ten seconds.

Two usual wrong methods of solving tsumego:
a) You don’t clear every variation in your mind, and instead just decide by feel. This is a critical mistake for your calculation.

b) You don’t calculate your opponent’s best response. This causes wishful thinking in a real game.

I will recommend a method of solving tsumego. Maybe it will help you.

Before doing tsumego, prepare a pen and paper for recording your mistakes. Generally speaking, there are three types of mistake:

a) You thought you were right, but when you saw the answer you found that you were wrong. Find the reason why you were mistaken.This is an effective way to improve the thoroughness of your calculation.

b) You couldn’t calculate the result. Don’t look at the answer until you solve it. If you spend too much time on it, that means your level is still far below that of the tsumego; abandon it.

c) You suspect the author of the tsumego was wrong. This is possible. You can consult with other players.

The above are the principles of doing tsumego. Let’s talk about the essential points.

You must choose a proper book for you – don’t choose a very, very hard book. If you can only resolve 10-20% of the problems, just abandon it. You should choose a book in which you can resolve 60-80% of the problems. Work through it repeatedly until you can easily resolve (clearing every variation) more than 95% of the problems. Then you should change book.

I think the proper tsumego books for a Tygem 2d are:

Lee Changho Tsumego (Volumes 1-6)
https://senseis.xmp.net/?LiChangHoJingjiangWeiqiSihuo

Lee Changho Tesuji
https://senseis.xmp.net/?LiChangHoJingjiangWeiqiShoujin

After you finish the twelve volumes, you will be above Tygem 4d. Although the author was not Lee Changho, the books are good. They contain almost every usual tsumego and tesujo found in real games.

Another book is good as well, Weiqi Tsumego 1000 Problems. It’s suitable for beginners up to amateur 3d.
https://senseis.xmp.net/?WeiqiLifeAndDeath1000Problems

And a set named Weiqi Tsumego Training.
https://senseis.xmp.net/?WeiqiLifeAndDeathDrills

There are three volumes: Junior, Intermediate, and Senior. The Senior volume is for amateur 6d and professional players, ignore it. The other two volumes contain about 2,000 problems, a few of them a bit hard. After my student finished the two volumes, he progressed from Tygem 5k to 4d.

Weiqi Sihuo Xunlian

If you finished all the books above (about 4,500 tsumego problems in total), I think you can sustain a Tygem 6d rank. After you finish Guanzi Pu (https://senseis.xmp.net/?GuanziPu), you can go up to Tygem 7d.

Tygem 7d is a barrier. Calculation and comprehensive power are needed to break through. If you want to jump to 8d, read Tianlongtu. In my opinion Guanzi Pu’s problems require one clue, but to solve Tianlongtu’s problems you need to find several correct clues and compose them together. Maybe this is the difference between professional and amateur?

If you have done all the tsumego listed above (about 7,000 problems), your calculation is already ahead of common amateurs, and not far from real amateur masters. You can sustain an 8d rank.

Of course, you should calculate tsumego but not learn them by heart.

About games:

Let’s talk about quality first. A game is a contest of two players’ move efficiency. You should force yourself to play the most efficient moves. This is the only way from 2d to 8d. Examining every random set of ten moves from a game, except the opening (first ten - twenty moves) and endgame (small yose), we can see that the efficiency of the players is different. The side with high efficiency will win the game.

One game has about 250 moves in all. 200 of them can be compared for efficiency (except the opening and endgame), so if a man wants to win he should collect tiny benefits from every move of the game.

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It is probably just my opinion, but I always thought a detour either helped you go around something that you couldn’t go through, such as a broken bridge. Then again, I am also a very literal person and I take everything pretty literally. I am not as high ranked as you, so I probably wouldn’t know how that stuff works because I am not as good. Detours get you around things that you wouldn’t otherwise be able to get around. Therefore, shouldn’t detours be good because then instead of sitting in the same place forever, you are actually doing something even if you are moving slower.

While this is true, it can be hard to tell if it is the right way, or a detour. If it is a detour, then since you were unable to get through one way, you get through another way, that although may take longer, it is better then not reaching your destination at all.

You don’t encounter a broken bridge often, but when you do, it is impossible to avoid getting slowed down but, it is important to find a way around it or you will never get to the other side. It isn’t always the best way, but it is better than giving up.

I admit I skimmed through your post because it was kind of long, but I will read it now, and then I also didn’t read any of the other posts, but I might not do that since some of them are kind of old.

Please note that this isn’t something I wrote; I just proofread the OP post which was in bad English.

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You can tell that I didn’t read the other posts at all. Why were you inspired to do it now, if it was originally posted in 2014?

Also another random question, Why is it that this thread is now “Will close 4 months after the last reply” if it didn’t close after a year of inactivity.

I was grinding my way down the list of longest threads. (I got all the way to 20 posts.)

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What?? Are you trying to get another thread on there? I guess I’ve got to try and beat you to it. :stuck_out_tongue:

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11 posts were split to a new topic: Should I necro?

I really like the tsumego process. It rings so true: I was doing it exactly the wrong way because that is easy.

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@Bhydden Thanks for moving out the necro discussion; I didn’t want my proofreading piece to get buried after all ^^

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