Review request (again, I know 🤷‍♀️ )

I had one misclick and one actual huge error I realized one second too late, I wonder if anyone can tell which is which :stuck_out_tongue:

I had difficulty parsing this game afterwards, maybe because it was so fast and close combat.

Any comments are appreciated.

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OMG, don’t know where to start. :stuck_out_tongue:

My suggestion is not to over read things. Make moves you clearly are able to read out. This includes finish your moves, aka, not to tenuki unless you understand it.

For example:
Move 16: protect the cut at E17. That’s a normal protection and can’t be too wrong.
Move 18: corner, side, then center is the normal sequence of play. most of the time it can not be too wrong. Even if it is not the best move, it is still easier to play.
Move 24: respond to the peep, just connect if you are not sure. there might be better moves, but again, if you don’t know for sure, just connect.

Look at all the contacting move in the middle. If both sides live, every move is a single point move pretty much. Go to the corner and side to take territory first. Don’t try to kill/capture opponent’s stones. Mathematically since we take turns, we should not be able to kill. Also it is uncertain. But if you take territory, for example, make an enclosure in the corner, the territory is always yours. Do something 20-30 moves later, that you can still say, it adds values.

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I was playing a 2D here a couple of years ago quite some games. I lost all but one because of a big mis-read of my opponent. Then I realized a pattern, every game I was attacking him. It looked like I was winning. I chatted with him that I was doing something horrible wrong strategically: the attack is a result of lack of understanding/direction of the game. Attack is always something easier to see, but wrong.

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Just some of the key points.

^^

Move 42 hane on the first line was dangerous. You have to watch liberties for these things :slight_smile: Black could’ve double Atari at e17. Locally one could try f18 (but there’s a cut at e16 and the ladder is good for black so could lead to a fight) or just e17.

Move 48, watch out for more double Atari’s :slight_smile:

Move 50 playing out a ladder that doesn’t work (loose ladder - the group has always 2 liberties rather than one). It’s probably ok because white is quite strong, but to capture the two stones you could try net instead with f10.

Move 122 what a capture :slight_smile:

Move 148 watch out when your stones (particularly a large group of them) are down to two or three liberties.

Move 188, I guess drifterwolfs advice about attack could be useful? One could just let the black stones crawl on the second and third lines and then make points in the centre and corner instead. In the end instead black escape from the edge of the board and even started to make big points in the lower right.

Move 236 watch out when your stones have only two or three liberties!

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" (again, I know ) "

Totally no need to apologise, we love reviewing, it’s what this part of the forum is for :slight_smile:

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And we can’t say we are submerged by review requests these last weeks too.

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moves comments
5 On OGS, it’s usually only DDKs who play this attachment in the first ten moves or so. You will see it commonly in the lesser SDK ranks on other servers, though. It’s not an awful move, but (at least imo) White can typically achieve a better local result with C17. It’s not significantly different from an early 3-3 invasion, though.
6 There is a saying (admittedly flawed) to “hane against an attachment”, which is what you should do here, either to the north (C17) or south (C15).
7 Transposing to a 3-3 invasion.
8 A somewhat vulgar line, this exchange is bad for Black. You’re right to hane on the outside.
11 Bad shape, leaving the peep at B18 that is the root of a lot of bad aji in the corner;.
12 This is reasonable. I would want to fix at F17 or D15, though, since there is some potential for the E16 atari to be annoying for White in a line like bE17 F16 E16+ E15 G17/16.
14 Note that Black has still not fixed his shape, which can be killed with a line like wB18 C18 B17. Whilst you should really kill immediately, it would be reasonable (although slack) to fix at F17 and ask Black to play a very passive living move like B17, after which you can take sente and ask Black why he allowed himself to be completely sealed in.
16 Big point.
17 Too close to White. You don’t necessary have to attack this stone any time soon, since it’ll require a reinforcing move like D18 which will leave Black slightly overcon’. The pincer is, though, a very reasonable idea at this time.
19 This contact exchange will strengthen two stones: the contacter (C8) and the contactee (D8). The key thing to note is the strength of the D8 stone affects the wellbeing of Black’s stone at D11, whereas the C8 stone doesn’t affect any white groups to the south. You were right to hane at the north.
22 The tiger’s mouth has some issues. Black C11 will be a ko threat to connect with D9; Black will have a peep at E9; and Black will have some force to the D7 turn. I prefer the full triangle. Still, the meaning of the moves – isolation of D11 – is the same.
24 Connecting to the peep is very important. It maintains the split between D11 and the corner and continues the threat of the lethal B18.
26 It’s vital to retain the integrity of your wall towards the centre, which lends a lot of support to your development of the top side and upper centre.
30 Although the wall still stands, note the defects at E16 and E14. You’ll have to be careful of these.
31 Black shouldn’t be mobilising this stone – it has no eyeshape potential and is surrounded by white thickness. If he tries to defend it then you should have an easy time attacking the progressively heavier group.
33 This is just small endgame.
34 Big central move.
35 More small endgame. You didn’t have to respond to this.
37 More small endgame, which again should’ve been gote.
39 Black’s early endgame is still gote.
42 This fails to the E17 double atari. If, instead, you just extended, it’d be clear that Black had made a bad exchange, strengthening your wall without even taking any points under his position.
44 Note that this doesn’t actually fix the E16 cut, which still comes with atari. Still, it’s the best that can be done.
46 “Don’t atari the cutting stone” runs the proverb. In this case, the immediate threat is the double atari at E16, but Black shouldn’t take that any time soon. He is happy to move out as in the game, aiming at the more powerful atari at F15, which cannot be resisted due to the multi-step connect-and-die sequence bF14 tk. F15+ E16? F16+ E17? G17+ F18? G18+. Instead of the atari’ing the cutting stone, then, it’s better to just extend to F15 and strengthen your shape.
48 Even now, you can and should defend your northern camp with F16.
50 The D11 stones are small. At this point I’d recommend Redmond’s advice that “when you make a big mistake, you should play far away.”
63 Black’s poor haengma has been good to you; he has made the central group very heavy, in the classic “dame staircase” shape.
66 Woah woah woah! Black has just played atari in the centre, threatening to capture F8 and relieve the pressure on his fat and lumbering group. The position there is not settled.
68 This idea is possible, but not straightforward. The idea is to squeeze Black from the centre, but to pull it off you need a pretty good understand of concepts like ko and connect-and-die. E8 is a more basic idea, but it’s obviously good to attempt more advanced strategies which should provide fuel for improvement.
70 You can play more strongly with D7, separating the central group from the corner. There can be a relevant ko at some point, eg. with wD7 D6 E7+ E6+ F6x. Black has no real ko threats, though, so he would be best advised to continue with a non-confrontational path of flight, like wD7 F6.
72 Loses a ko threat and reduces a liberty of your own stones. A bad exchange. I can see that you wanted to play (74) F6+ as in the game, and that you consider this exchange a necessary precursor. However, the fact that the atari is sente means that Black must regard it as having already been played, and therefore – since White doesn’t wish to play it yet – both colours can just suppose it as having already taken place. BenKyo illustrated this idea well in a recent teaching stream.
78 There’s no need yet to try to capture this stone, since it’s too undeveloped to pose any threat to your relatively strong groups. If you did mean to capture, though, it’s simpler to do so with the J11 net. In the game you chose a ladder, which obviously creates bad aji in the ladder’s path, in this case in the northeast centre (yes, I know it’s really a “loose ladder”, a fancy net, with bJ11 K12 J12 J13). As I’m sure you’re aware, it was also urgent to defend the top-side stones with a move like G17 or H17, and we ofc see Black capture them on (81).
84 This leaves a cut in your shape at J7. A cutless alternative fix could’ve been made at J6, removing both the J7 and G6 defects at once.
85 Small endgame. You can happily respond to this by just fixing your cut.
86 “Developing” from the top-side stones isn’t useful, since they’ve already been captured. Black can now simply extend to H17, moving into the top side.
94 Best saved as a ko threat.
96 I’m not sure this cut is reasonable considering how flimsy the top-side group is. It’d be more prudent to extend to L17 and ask Black whether he’s going to fix, and if not then consider taking the cut.
100 This is minor endgame (and not the best way to play the endgame in this area at that.) I suspect this was the misclick.
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Did you ask for undo? :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

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A little bit of overconfidence is not so usual but not that difficult to remedy.

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Just in my defense (not that I can’t be that dense, I wasn’t in this particular case :stuck_out_tongue: ), I knew the ladder wouldn’t work because I was missing one stone. I was trying to see how it could go, exploring possible reactions.

Could you give some more details? I didn’t think I was attacking, so now I’m confused. I get the jist of what @drifterwolf says, but I can’t put it on the board. :frowning_face:

Is this a typo? I think D18 is taken.

LOL that was the misclick! It was a glitch or something, I wasn’t even ready to choose a move, I was just hovering and thinking, so I panicked a bit after that. (To answer @Lys 's question, I did click undo, but more in a knee-jerk way, not actually asking or expecting. My opponent played after that almost immediately, either didn’t see it or didn’t grand it, but it didn’t really matter to me.)

I found this

Are we talking about this? I’ll read that up later.

That’s a new concept for me…

I think this whole move comment is too advanced for me. :crying_cat_face: What ko threat did I lose?..

I am now. :woman_shrugging: For some reason I got afraid that my whole group there would die, I wasn’t necessarily going for the stone, more trying to crawl out.


The huge error I realized one second too late was playing away after M15. The moment I played H12 I saw it.

In the M8 exchange, I had a rough idea that I could save the thing, so I wasn’t too worried.

However, AI says the move that lost me the game was actually L5, and the funny/ sad thing is I was contemplating which side of the black stones I should play, completely missing the fact that those stones needed saving.

Fun fact, after I passed and my opponent played at D2, I actually stood up and walked around the room thinking in my head what was the killing move. I knew it was in there and I wanted that corner, dammit. It took me I think about 5 minutes walking up and down until I was sure in my mind that the thing couldn’t live.
(not that I won’t die in the future in a similar situation, I’m still me)

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I also don’t think it was bad, just giving an alternative move idea :slight_smile:

I also am not completely sure what happens in the corner but I shared a couple of maybe optimistic variations :slight_smile:

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D18 should read D8. Well caught.

For connect and die, see Oiotoshi at Sensei's Library

What ko threat did I lose?

The atari itself was a potential ko threat, a threat to capture the atari’d stones.

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Your opening looks pretty good these days, @Gia. You might benefit from playing more solid though. For example, you played move 12 as an indirect hanging connection, rather than a direct solid connection. This gave you problems when Black peeped at C13 later, because the push to C14 became atari.

As another example in that corner, you played away at move 16. Enclosing the corner like that is a big opening move, and you were right to identify it as a good spot to play. Even so, playing away from the other corner left a cutting weakness at E17 that would really sour my mood if I were playing. You were lucky Black could only come up with E19 in the game. But it’s much better to shore up your weakness no matter your opponent’s level. This makes the group thick and reliable, which should pay off later on. The good defense in this case would be a hanging connection at F17. I realize this contradicts my own advice above, but it’s more important to avoid making an empty triangle than it is to leave a threat to cut behind.

I hope this helps!

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I should have used the word kill/capture instead of attack earlier to make my point clearer.

So from this point on, every white move is an intention to capture, which is not that much wrong if you read tells you you can.

Look at this point of the game:

First of all, to kill those two black stones, white can simply do this:

But the white group is live, the capture of the two black stones is 4-5 points. of course it adds thickness to the white group, though it is quite solid already. Understanding 5 points can be wrong, but more of elaborate my points.

If you choose any of the plays below, it is bigger than 5 points.

From your sequence of play till this point, both ends up live. all the moves by black and white are very inefficient, meaning adding no real territory with the exception of white on the outside.

So you look at AI suggestion for black when you made your first attempt to capture the two black stones. It simply gives it to you and go to take a corner instead.

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There is a nice chapter in “attack and defense” about this…
It’s about a player who like to fight and shows a supra long and complicated fight which he loses and ask why he loses so many times (with dia in the book). Then the pro sweep the board and put a ladder with a few stones on the path far away and ask: would you play that ladder?
The player read 5mn carefully then answer “no it doesn’t work” then the pro put back the big fight position and ask “and here?” And then you know the player start to understand that maybe he should restrain to go into these fights…

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My main point though is in the first diagram. Looks like you were not sure if you can capture the two black stones. In that case, my suggestion is to take some obvious territory or sure value first.

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I see, I understand better now, thank you!

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