The all-in-one democratic game

With C6, I think white can get this?

By my reading, black then loses the semeai:


There might be a way to capture the F8 stones in gote while white squeezes from below, but that does not seem all that interesting at this point.

What happens if black starts with the clamp at B8?


Looks ko-ish perhaps?

Is there a reason for white to not respond at G12?

White may not even be adamant about saving E12 anymore, preferring to make good aji on the upper side instead:

And I don’t think black ever wants to play like this:

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Long time no see everyone, back from the summer vacation. And I agree with @mark5000 to probe at G13.


Here is one of the variations if white extend back at F14 with move 4 (it’s a terrible idea IMO). Black would be able to push through at E14 (assume white chooses to atari at G14). The difference is that the black B6 now works. It would be a ko if white answer with either of the points A, B, and C (the ko with point B is a bit different). The key is that black can now use the area around L16 for numerous ko threats, and white only has local ko threats that would run out, and has to take the ko. And black would get extra move on the top to either escape or living locally (depends on how white answer the ko before). But the area on the lower center left is presumed to be white to begin with. And black just gets an extra move to reduce the top white moyo.


If white choose to block at E14 for black E13, then black can use nose tesuji to push the center boundary right on the white’s boarder, and gain nearly 20 points, and keep sente (and use like P7 to attack the lower right white group). Black doesn’t even need to care about L16, the points along in yose would just win the game (I estimate like 90+ for black and 80+ for white).

The safer way for white to answer black F12 is probably just connect at E13. Although that by itself creates other issues further down the line (the black nose tesuji would still work, but the upper left black group is not yet alive as I pointed out months ago, so the result is still hard to say, probably a few points less than black push through E13 (which black would be connected to the center and no need to worry about life and death, and a big reason why black can afford to lose the ko in situation where white extend back at F14, and black start the ko. Even if white gets A18 to take away the second eye, black can just connect to the center and live. However, if the white disconnect the center with upper left black group with E13, then when black loses the ko, black would need to play around C18 to make it alive and gote)

And there are several ways to answer G13, clamp at H13 (I believe @mark5000 mentioned that when I brought up the G13 probe months ago), cut at G12, or jump back at H14.

H13 seems to be a safe option, but leave for black the chance to extend at G14, which later could mean a big different in the live and death or semeai in the upper right corner if black want’s to live there (or ko). I already discuss a bit about G12 cut, and even if white connect E13, it still leaves more room for black G13 as an aji to do all kinds of things later. I am not sure about jump back at H14, but it limits black’s aji the best, however it might give black a few small sente yose later. This reminded me of a Chinese Go saying 後中先, a seemingly gote move, end up cancelling the sente move for the opponent further down the line (like a special kind of sente). And finally, there is always the option of tenuki, but I don’t see a better place to play though (maybe just play around L16 to reduce its aji? Or secure the lower right corner? I don’t know if it is still in time to invade or reduce the black moyo, consider the black moyo is so high, the invasion would need to be pretty deep)

7 Likes

Welcome back, Claire!

So currently white’s stone at E12 is cutting off black’s upper left group from the center. Is it likely, that white gives up on E12 after black cuts at G13? Would black still want to play at C18 in that case or rather play forcing moves from the other side like E18?

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I enjoy reading all those comments, may i just remind everyone to not forget to give your own suggestion ?

With the ones we have already now, i plan a poll will come soon (few hours as i use to say :hugs:), if no more come in.

Black to play, please vote!

  • B7
  • C6
  • C7
  • C18
  • G13
  • K16
  • K17
  • M17
  • ​another move, please tell us.

0 voters

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Shouldn’t B7 be B8? Or were both suggested?

1 Like

B7 was suggested in post 1666.

Now you talked about B8 once leading to a ko-ish position perhaps, i really didn’t know if it was a suggestion, we can add it if you want.

Ah OK. I suggested B8 in post 1668. But there may be plenty of choice already :grin:

1 Like

Well ok sorry that i didn’t realize.

B8 IS ONE MORE SUGGESTION.

You can vote for it by posting here in the thread
(Please only one vote between the candidates)

In that case I vote

Spoiler

B8

No need to hide (votes being always public). :rofl:
Perfect, it s just in case there are more other moves suggested as one.

Reminder (for new participants):
It is possible to add a new suggestion even during the poll. Use the thread to tell us and vote the ”another move” option.
Be careful that the poll deadline will not change.

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The follow-up for B7 depends on how white answer them, could range from a settle for black to rescue the three black stones exchange for some corners in the very lower left, to numerous ko fights result in complete swap of the upper left by sacrificing 9 black stones for the whole lower left, an early compromise for white to take the ko and keep the left territory, while black uses C17 as ko threats and take the C16 3 white stones and secure the upper left, or using all the ko threats inside the upper white moyo and create another potential semeai or secondary ko in the process, to even swap the lower right white for the upper left, or numerous other kinds of exchanges, like if some moves were involved in the ko to break through the M13 and Q12 gap, and create a whole mess on the upper right.

B7 is actually a very hard move to judge, and would still be an option after the G13 probe. But black needs to be very precise in using local forcing moves to create the ko.

2 Likes

We are 10 hrs only from the deadline of the vote (click here for direct access)

And only 8/17 participated. I worry a bit because we are back to the usual planning, 2-3 days discussing, one day voting!

I would go for B8

3 Likes

LAST BUMP! I promise, sorry

5hrs before closing…

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Black G13 wins the poll.

Time for brainstorming, what’s your suggestion for white move?

demo here

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G12 and H13 both look natural and seem to work. If they somehow didn’t, then H14 would be the emergency damage control move.

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I think we need to think about the move black would be playing next to get a better sense of how to respond to G13.

As I stated in my reply, the cut seem to create their own problems, the thing we need to consider is would black immediately push F12, or first create some ko inside white group on the left? And later use the whole upper left center as ko threats? Is there any way to avoid ko completely if black played moves around B7 (like C7)? If white answer with H14 I still feel it is probably still better to create the ko regardless than make any moves on the top. And if white answer with H14 (which looks gote locally), where would black’s next move to be (is the top moyo in danger? the lower right in danger? would black have enough just to push the boarder to the center?)

4 Likes

Hello, how is everybody out there?
It’s not because i keep silent till now that i’m not checking regularly if there are any more contribution.

So wassup? Difficult position should become even more attractive for all of us.

3 Likes