# Tsumego help

hello, hope someone can clarify this problem for me. Black to move, white lives.
Video i watched was 围棋常型讲座18, 11minutes 51 seconds. Author says white lives easily, even though its black to move.

The point of a tsumego is to find the solution by yourself.

If you have a sequence which you consider to kill white and you can’t find any refutation, maybe we can help. But first, you should put in some effort to kill white here. Link your efforts and ye shall be helped.

You can make a demo in OGS put in what you understand or what you think could kill and then we can discuss it.

so far, this is the best i could get. not even ko.

On your OGS “Home” page, navigate to the top left corner. You will see a symbol looking like 三. Click on it and select “+Demo Board”. You have now started a demo. You can set up your initial board position here. Then you can play around and add your variations. You can also add comments.

It is impossible to derive from your real-board final position what you did to get there, so we can’t point out your mistakes. Use OGS.

2 Likes

The thing I can see from your pic is that there is a nice gap in black surrounding stones that w can use (or not?).

Now as said please open a demo, put your moves and then we can help more.

@jeffreyng in your second picture white can escape towards the center, so it’s far from dead.

@smurph based on the video, I don’t think it’s really a tsumego.

It’s irrelevant what the video is about, OP just gives us his source.

Since he’s wondering how white lives if black plays first, that’s a life and death problem to him. Whether or not you would call it a tsumego is not the question here.

Also, white can’t escape into the center.I’ll leave that as a tsumego for you. White to push through and die.

But what I really want to know is how black ended up with 4 more stones on the board now (11 vs 7) as opposed to the original situation (5 vs 4). I take it black moved last in the second one and took a stone, but that only accounts for 2/3 extra stones.

Are you sure he can escape? I went curious.
Oh @smurph I see you did talk on that too

That;s what I’d call an XY problem. The OP assumes it’s a tsumego question, the answer is that he/she is asking the wrong question.

I am intrigued. For now I’ll stick with the commentator’s opinion (well, at least what I assume he is saying) that white can either live in the corner or escape to the center.

R13 was already on the board, just not visible in the first picture.

@violaine the picture doesn’t tell us the order of the moves, so of course I had to make some assumptions. I don’t know about T18, but P18 was probably one of the first moves. I hope the diagram below clarifies things for the OP, white does not have to live in the corner.

OP clearly states that there’s this position in the corner, the commentator says something along the lines of “now w is already alive” and he’s wondering how w can live if black plays first. That is by definition a life and death problem, even if “B to move first, W to live” may not appeal to your sense of tsumego aesthetics.

You’re intrigued about the wrong thing though. I am referring to OP’s picture, not the initial position as given in the video. I’m pretty sure that’s what you referred to as well, considering you said “in your second picture white can escape towards the center, so it’s far from dead.”. As I said before, unless we know OP’s best sequence, it doesn’t make much sense to speculate.

It is… assuming you’re asking the right question. That’s the issue with an XY problem.

The point here is that in such positions the term “alive” should not be taken in the strict sense. If white breaks out in the center it is considered that black cannot kill.

Well, it was not. I hope my diagram cleared things up. Honestly the final position in the picture is highly improbable.
 re-reading my earlier post, I see how I spelled it out incorrectly. Apologies to @smurph and @violaine for the misleading reply, and the diagram is definitely what I had in mind. I honestly can’t figure out how a stone like R19 in the picture got there in the first place.

Nah

yes p18 was the first move.

i am still trying to learn the demo board. p17 was 2nd move.

n18 third move, 4th move was q18, 019 was fifth move.

demo-360776.sgf (461 Bytes)

hi, how to you copy the image to post in this forum. I can’t seem to figure it out. sorry.

@jeffreyng Just use copy/paste to insert an image.

That’s fine, I think we understand where you were going with your sequence. So did you see the diagram I posted and my reply? You don’t need to make two eyes in the corner if you can escape to the center.