2022: HOLD MY TEA! 🍵

Not sure if what I consume is ‘mainstream’, but yes, I can at least confirm that it is picked up in German media.

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It is picked up, but not first page.
The “serious” news can’t afford to let it pass, they just don’t make it a major point.

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In the paper I’m reading it was the first article on page 2 yesterday. On page one there are only a few (extended) headlines. So I’d say that it’s in a pretty prominent spot.

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Forgive a dumb question from a Wrong Anglo-Saxon, but I was not aware Germans considered themselves “western”? :thinking:

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Really? That’s surprising. Anyway, yes, we definitely do.

Definitions that I am aware of today even include Poland and the Baltic countries. We are definitely west of those!

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Goodness, I confess I don’t precisely know what “western” is west of… though I certainly wouldn’t have thought it included Poland :thinking: I think maybe I assumed it was Europe in general, with Germany being more central and “western” mostly referring to England, and by extension America and Australia as colonies… is there a central? Or is there only eastern and western? That could be the source of my confusion…

It is a war, so it will eventually have grim pages and actions from every side involved.

I do not know what kind of life does one have to live to end up with this “black and white”, “with us or against us” mentality, but it is not only naive and not grounded in reality (which is fine, everyone has some unreasonable beliefs or vested interests), but they are causing severe social problems by not letting the rest of society have a civilised discourse based on facts on a lot of issues (which is not fine. Facts should be facts no matter where your beliefs or vested interests stand).

Wouldn’t it be awesome if they got to call themselves Ostrogoths and Visigoths? Those names sound so cool :innocent:

On something totally different for 2022:

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Well, this changes over time. In the 70s I certainly wouldn’t have included Poland. And there were 2 German countries. But things changed a bit since. :slight_smile:

Is the Ukraine a western country? I think that’s a question that is literally fought over atm.

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Maybe it is my ignorance, but I would certainly consider all former soviet states/nations to be eastern european. Though I could understand one saying all of europe is “western” and only asia is “eastern” :man_shrugging:
Stay tuned for more ignorant thoughts from the Wrong Anglo-Saxon :rofl:

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I actually agree about eastern Europe. But in the usage I’m aware of ‘western counties’ is not at all the same as ‘western European countries’.

From where I am it is pretty hard to tell if New Zealand is east or west from here. Still a western country for me.

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I find it helps to consider NZ and Aus as west of America rather than south of Asia :sweat_smile:

You’ll be amused to learn we are considered “West” in certain contexts (as in, Christian country compared to neighbors, US protectorate compared to neighbors, and generally in any circumstance it serves some purpose “compared to neighbors”).

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A part of it (the western part and a lot of the central part) is, and a part of it is not (the eastern part).
We, as EU/NATO could have pushed for the diplomatic/democratic way and support people voting on it, if they could not agree where the whole country should go.

Czechoslovakia did this successfully when the country split in two, without much fuss and definitely without a war.

Why on earth we didn’t support that kind of thing is anyone’s guess :confused:

In my view, the “Western world” is a somewhat diffuse concept, mostly meaning democratic, capitalist, developed countries. Originally (mid 20th century?) this meant mostly the US, Canada, Oceania and Western Europe, most of which is kind of, sort of located in the Western hemisphere of the globe. Hence the label.

But as time passed, some countries (mostly in Central and Eastern Europe) changed to become democratic, capitalist, developed countries. So I think nowadays those are considered part of the “Western world” as well. I don’t know if Japan and South Korea belong to this category though.

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It amazes me how confused and convoluted some terms and concepts have become since World War II. “Western” has generally stood as an abbreviation for Western Civilization, which represents a philosophical-cultural heritage that traces back to the ancient Greeks and Romans and belongs mostly (but not entirely) to the Indo-European linguistic family. As such, it would be best if it were capitalized (pardon my pedantry). Of course Germany is Western (think Goethe. Beethoven, the Reformation), as are Poland and the other eastern European countries, who did not lose their cultural history just because they were conquered and briefly occupied by the Russians. I’m not going to waste time writing a thesis on this. Interested persons can go read Samuel Huntington’s The Clash of Civilizations, Will Durant, Jacques Barzun, and a multitude of others who have written about the history of Western Civilization.

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I feel that “Western” in relation to the war is referring to the more modern context of 20th century geopolitics, not so much to the context of the origins of civilisations (in the latter, Russia would be more closely related to Western civilisation than to Eastern civilisation).

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They say we have our own path. Sometimes we might wonder why we can’t have it like in Europe or something, and that’s the explanation. We’re so unique that it’s really no use to try to mimic foreign to us Western ideas. It’s not gonna work out anyway. We need to carve out our own path.

Honestly, this life causes nothing but repulsion and revulsion. I can’t ignore this anymore. And can’t do anything about it either. Sucks.

Ukraine is under attack. Ukrainians defend themselves. Some Ukrainian, while defending themselves, employ tactics that put other Ukrainians in danger. If a crime at all, this is a crime from some Ukrainians against other Ukrainians. Certainly not a crime that “Ukraine” as a whole has committed.

You can maybe call out the people (maybe military leaders) who took the questionable decisions. Calling out “Ukraine” as a whole doesn’t make much sense to me. I can’t see any sense in “condemning Ukraine” for fighting back when they are victim of an invasion.

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When I hear “western” my thoughts go to Europe and America, the east being divided in “far” (China, Japan, India and all other countries in that region) and “middle” (Israel and arab countries).
Russia would be western in that partition, even though it spans two continents.
Africa and Oceania are out of it.
I don’t know if there’s some official source for that.

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Wait, so it doesn’t count? Crimes don’t work like that.

As often stated, many things can be true at once.

Russia (as in the decision maker) invaded another country, which is wrong.
Ukraine (as in some Ukrainians) may have commited war crimes, which is also wrong.

Fighting back means you are justified in fighting back, not in committing atrocities.

Also,

not “Russia” as a whole invaded Ukraine, either.

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