Are you serious?
As far as I know, the user you talk about is fluent in Korean since birth, they’ve stated as much since the start of this thread, and you’re being incredibly rude by suggesting they’re not.
Why are you so doubtful of it?
Before my comment the user in question has not once stated that he is “fluent in Korean since birth”. You are being “incredibly rude” for judging me on basis of something you made up. I propose the following: If you can show me where the user stated that he is “fluent in Korean since birth” then I will apologize to you and the user. If you cannot show me (because it didn’t happen) you apologize to me for your comment. What do you think?
In his very last reply, after I wrote my comment he did indeed write
Now again this is after my comment. Also this is being very vague. I don’t speak every language on this planet so I can’t be fully certain where this term is used but afaik this term is only used in two places on this planet: North Korea and Yeonbyeon. Both of these places have a pronunciation that differs from standard Korean (표준어) which I’m speaking and if the user is actually from there I think it would have been nice if he could’ve pointed that out earlier.
Like mentioned above I’m not doubtful of anything, the user has never stated as much. But on the matter of doubtful let’s have a look:
The greatest achievement of this thread is to make very clear why “Go” is the preferred name of this game in the West.
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As said, it is not important whether anyone here is fluent in Korean or not, and it is not necessary for anyone to prove anything, whether they speak Korean or not.
That does not remove the fact that you’re assuming that they don’t speak Korean, and being quite insistent about it without knowing anything about this person. Moreover, you continue doing this even after being asked to stop it. It is rude regardless of whether you are correct or not, and you shouldn’t apologise because you were wrong, but because you are making assumptions
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You made a false statement and then proceeded to judge me on the basis of this false statement. I do expect an apology for that.
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Every time, I talk to someone online I assume that they do not speak Korean. Same way I assume that they do not speak Dutch or German. There are not many speakers so this is a valid assumption to make unless the person states otherwise (which did not happen here).
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It is completely wild to me that you ask me to stop assuming someone does not speak Korean (while that person never said he does). While at the same time completely ignoring that the very user in question several times explicitly stated that he doubts me on my Korean availability. And he furthermore at two different times tried to solicit me to upload identifying information about myself. Which in my opinion is a total no go in an online forum. Seems a little biased you know.
I have not made any false statement as far as I know.
There is a difference between assuming someone does not speak Korean without better knowledge, and directly expressing that you don’t believe someone speaks Korean with better knowledge, something which you started with this comment and subsequent ones:
Each of benjito’s remarks hinting at you not speaking Korean are reactions to a previous comment where you did the exact same to them.
Asking someone to upload a recording of how they pronounce a letter in a discussion about the pronunciation of that letter is not “soliciting to upload identifying information”. Be realistic, please.
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I agree with everything except
IMO English speakers saying “baduk” can sound pretty off. Paduk sounds closer to me. Of course neither is a perfect match, so what is best probably varies from person to person.
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Well, you said “As far as I know, the user you talk about is fluent in Korean since birth, they’ve stated as much since the start of this thread”.
@benjito never said (at least explicitly) that he was fluent in Korean in this thread, so yes I would say you made a false statement here.
Now, that being said, it doesn’t matter much. The whole point is that @Regenwasser should not just assume he’s the only one speaking Korean unless somebody else explicitly says so. You have no clue who you’re speaking to so you’d look better being humble rather than basing your argument on being the only one in the know.
Also
And he furthermore at two different times tried to solicit me to upload identifying information about myself. Which in my opinion is a total no go in an online forum.
Lol wat
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Ok, I agree, that is indeed a false statement. Apologies for stating that.
I still believe that there have been an abundance of clues hinting at Korean proficiency, and I also remember statements benjito has made in the past (in different threads), but this is likely not something Regenwasser is aware of.
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Thank you very much for being rational and for standing up for the probably most persecuted user on OGS. I imagine that was not easy to do and I really appreciate it.
Thank you for that.
I personally very much appreciate online forums that have an open culture and allow arguments to take place. I still do believe though that solicitation of identifying information that could potentially lead to doxxing and real life harassment should be a no go. The user in question has attempted this twice in this very thread.
This is again not true. The user in question has written this very aggressive and mean-spirited comment after I already stated that I speak Korean fluently and without any such remark from me in their direction:
Maybe this should not have enraged me to this degree but I’m only human. I still want to clarify that it was the user in question that “threw the first stone”.
This is very true. This thread does definitely not make me look good. That is very clear to me. It is difficult to stay 100% polite and rational when bombarded by comments attacking and mocking you from a plethora of users. I could have still conducted myself better and I will try to avoid this in the future.
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Sorry this comment affected you in this way.
To explain why I made the comment - you claim to be fluent in Korean and some European languages. You also make claims about pronunciation that are backed up by nothing except for “I’m fluent”.
There is one possible explanation for that - fluency does not imply good diction. You may be perfectly capable of holding a conversation in Korean/German/English, but still use the sounds from only one of those languages. A recording would have cleared this question up immediately. That said, please don’t feel obligated to post one.
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It’s not because the title of this dismantled topic was badly chosen thay you should take the opportunity to deny a part of it.
There is quite a bit of contribution on the choice between go baduk and weiqi still here, not just about korean phonetic.
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As a European this sentence sounds very outlandish to me. Speaking several language is kind of normal around here. The area you have to move through to get to another place that suddenly speaks a different language is not that large.
I’m not “perfect” at Korean. Like I have trouble reading 조선일보 without a dictionary and I watch Korean shows on Netflix with Korean subtitles on. But in the end I’d say I’m fluent. I’ve lived in Korea for several years etc.
What’s interesting here though is that I’m getting reprimanded for doubting your language abilities (which you never even claimed you had). While apparently you can keep doubting my language abilities without end. I assume it’s nice to be an OGS V.I.P. user with some great privileges. Good for you.
I’ve also asked several Korean friends just to make sure I’m not saying anything wrong. I’ve yet to find a Korean who thinks that ㅂ is closer to P than to B. And later on in this thread I’ve also linked YT videos of people using words that start with ㅂ.
That’s why I’ve posted the YT videos with 5 examples. One user analyzed them using IPA. The result was:
- 1 unknown
- 1 p
- 1 pʰ
- 1 b
- 1 b or p, not sure
So apparently the IPA on this is not so clear. While it is true that I’ve argued on the basis of my and my Korean friends’ hearing most counterarguments were basically based on this Wikipedia article and other people’s personal hearings. I guess in the end we have to agree to disagree on this matter. It kind of feels like a long thread arguing if the dress is blue/black or white/gold.
I’m not questioning your fluency. In fact, I’ve already told you I think fluency is irrelevant to this conversation. I know Europeans are often multilingual. However, even Europeans tend to have some accent showing what their native language is. Pronunciation has very little to do with language proficiency.
Do you not see the gap in the logic here? If you are asking Koreans, who likely see Revised transliteration everywhere, of course they will say ㅂ sounds like a B.
It seems that you’re only willing to listen to listen to someone who has demonstrated fluency in Korean for some reason. Maybe check out this video? https://youtu.be/e7ph9L2Iguc
I don’t really know what you’re looking for tbh
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If you mean English + Native language, I kinda agree, though this is really not specific to Europe and, even there, is not necessarily that “normal” depending on the place.
But apart from that, speaking several languages other than English is really not the norm in Europe.
I think you’re right.
I assume that anything up to 2.0 usually means native language + (some) English, except maybe for the British isles themselves.
Scores above 2.0 are mostly seen in some of the smaller countries whose native language is not spoken much elsewhere, which makes sense I suppose.
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I meant normal as in “not surprising”, “relatively common”. Not as in “being the norm”. I probably should have used the word “common”.
It is still an average though. There are many people that only speak one language. I checked for Germany and while the average might be somewhere around 2, the share of people speaking three or more languages is 24%.
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Another gap is that (I presume) most Koreans will only be familiar with the aspirated P from English (and as I’ve learnt now, German), and not with the nonaspirated one from French, Italian, Dutch, etc… Hence, they will be unfamiliar that the main distinction between P and B is voicing, and not aspiration.
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