I play on GoQuest A LOOOOOOT these days, specifically because I love the Absolute Blitz format and it is near perfect (not true absolute, adding 1s after each stone played). I have played several thousand games in the format by now and it has always been my understanding that time management is the defining feature of this specific format. An additional aspect of play that is far more pressing than Byo’s continuous style of play.
As such, testing your opponents time is an inevitable consequence of the format. Infilling or pointless invasions may be annoying to contend with, but they are also your opponents right if you have managed your time poorly. Either you can finish the match or not. Victory cannot be obtained if you cannot last the round. I truly enjoy this aspect of play and find it only comes up in about 1 of every 15 to 20 matches.
In this specific situation, I don’t think these time wasting behaviors are unsportsman like. In fact, for me, to warn or punish people for doing them degrades the format on OGS. It should be tolerated. Unfortunately, when I first began GoQurst I did bit understand the joy of time management yet and was frustrated as well by it. I think if both players understood it was a possibility of play before the match starts, it would really clear up any disputes. Sadly, I don’t know how you could achieve that.
Actually, you could post something at the beginning of a match in chat explaining this time stealing concept, telling them to feel free to use it because you might too. But it would eat up their time to read it if the clock was active. The only way you could get around that is to make sure you are Black, paste the message when the match starts, wait 30 seconds or so for them to read it, and then play your first stone, which would start the game clock.
Not sure how a Moderator would see that effort though. @BHydden, would this effort matter in your eyes if someone complained about time wasting having taken place?
I’m not sure It’s really needed as goquest doesn’t need to do that and their system seems good running. Maybe just having a better specification in the ToS, guides on how to behave according to different time settings could be enough (to recommend in case of misunderstanding between differences of allowance)
I think GoQuest wouldn’t benefit from this behavior because all games are absolute blitz. It is something all experienced players come to understand as a truth of playing there. With OGS’ diverse time settings and the low popularity (which I assume means unfamiliarity by most players) of absolute time matches, it seems to me that the pre-game message approach might help raise awareness and set expectations for those who aren’t familiar with the format. Perhaps also add to the chat message, “If you do not wish to continue, you can quit the match now and the game will be automatically annulled.”, which is true. At least this gives every opponent a heads up and if the match continues, it does so with informed consent.
By your description, I have the impression that you might not be meaning the same by “pointless moves to make the game last longer” than others in this thread, particularly mods (then again, maybe you are and you think that these extra moves are ok in this context).
As an example of the typical “wasting time” that I think most are talking about, I took an old game I played and added a variation you can see in chat:
You can see that in the variation, black did reasonably well at limiting the number of white moves: black first filled his own territory creating almost-filled eyespaces, making sure NOT to capture those almost-filled white stones, as that would give white extra moves to further make a longer game. Then being pass alive, black patiently passed nonstop, waiting for white to actually run out of legal moves. If the game had a seki, maybe black cannot be pass-alive and instead of automatically passing, must check every move whether white pointless move was in fact a ko threat in the seki, or else is trapped and his seki dies because of spamming the pass button without looking at the opponent move. Note that a move like capture of the whole white group at M1 in this context would be a blunder by black, as that would enable a huge number of new moves by white, making the game much much longer. In fact, in a ruleset with suicide, black cannot avoid white suiciding at M1, and thus once white dies black must fill as much as possible to preven white from creating another big live group, which would then suicide itself to gain more moves, etc etc.
Even in this context of an already long game and black being quite careful to not give white new moves, the game was prolonged by about 50%! (The variation finally ends after move 456). For a shorter game to start with, the opponent could very easily double the length of the game in terms of total moves. If a double ko seki happens to be on the board, it might be a nightmare because the opponent can exchange two extra pointless moves every single turn, so effectively the amount of added moves triples in that case.
So it seems that if playing by truly absolute time, you should always leave in your clock enough time to play at least as many extra moves as the whole game lasted, as a rule of thumb, or risk losing by not being able to move in time. This, together with the fact that those final extra moves are total nonsense, are why so many people consider absolute time is only reasonable if accompanied by a “code of honor” rule not to do such pointless moves until there is literally no legal move on the board. Those who prefer not to need a “code of honor” prefer to avoid absolute time altogether. Playing like this is still discouraged and will be seen as extremely rude but under fischer / byo-yomi or other systems, it will not make a player lose on time after the “actual game” was “clearly finished beyond reasonable doubt”.
So code of honor or no code of honor? My feeling is that on that specific Absolute blitz time setting moderation could relax a bit. (With some warning somewhere about what are we in)
Or i may just timeout not because i managed badly my time but because i keep thinking if we play under that code of honor or not
With a small indulgence on passing (That 1s on goquest (passing or playing ) 2s on kgs, 10s for me, 15s for @Vsotvep) i will stand myself players who keep trying at any cost to make my flag fall down.
The 1s increment makes all the difference! Absolute time doesn’t work well without a honor system, as @elsantodel90 explained above. But 1s increment works great, especially on the 9x9 board which is standard on GoQuest. There no honor system is needed since (with some practice) it’s easy to make the final moves of the game within 1s - and I don’t feel like my opponent is rude if they force me to prove my win that way.
Your case here is definitely different than what I have been considering. Since my only experience with Absolute Blitz is my games played on GoQuest (once more noting I realize it isn’t true absolute for the sake of this thread’s conversation), what I face in those games is not really open to this sort of abuse.
All games on GoQuest use the Chinese rule set. Truly rare would the board configuration be that allowed someone to continue on indefinitely. I’ve some some eternal Ko examples on Sensei’s Library that might allow it. Also, this Seki Superko should qualify too (jump to Move 19 where the Demo begins to see the example play out).
All of my games are on the 9x9, so stalling is far less effective and tiresome than on the 13x13 or 19x19. I realize it is easier to find time stealing behavior interesting on a smaller board. On a larger board I likely would feel more frustrated. Honestly, just filling in Dame on a 13x13 can feel tedious to me.
With Area Scoring there isn’t any damage to filling in your own territory, so that isn’t an aspect I personally deal with, though I can understand how it would be more annoying with Territory Scoring.
I consider this to be a normal part of any Go match, regardless of time settings. One must pay close attention to every stone played in order to assess it’s threat potential. Spamming the Pass button is always risky, akin to announcing to your opponent they may try whatever they like because you feel confident that no further moves can be made worthy of your response.
You are right, suicide is a real big issue and would be easy to abuse intentionally. For the AB enthusiast, maybe for the sake of enjoying their matches, any rule set which permits Suicide should not be utilized.
Absolute Time matches are definitely prone to abuse. I feel that infilling, pointless invasions, atari, self-atari, etc… have all been something I have encountered and dealt with on GoQuest. I encounter them rarely and when they result in a loss when I know I have won the match, I shrug, feel confident for winning the match, and just move on. I don’t lose much real world time dealing with it on the 9x9, so I haven’t worried too much about it. I think match restarting is despicable when used to cheat and should be reported.
Like @Conrad_Melville, I think users should report behavior so problematic players can be identified, warned, and ultimately removed if necessary. Modifying the system is good when it adds value, but bad if it removes value for the sake of protecting honorable players from the bad apples out there. Better to remove the bad apples and prioritize system design, even if that means leaving a few doors open that can be exploited by dishonorable characters (like the scoring phase can be exploited).
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I think in the end, the best way for an A.B. enthusiast to enjoy frequent and quality games is to follow the wonderful advice shared by @Lys.
@Bunburyist, the primary issue you face is finding other players who enjoy your specific endeavor. It only makes sense that you create a social space where you can all socialize and stay in touch. Then begin locating like-minded individuals to join the club. I faced the same issue a couple of years ago. I am a huge fan of New Zealand Rules but there were are few people who play with them on OGS. I did exactly what Lys suggested and I created a group (New Zealand Tournaments). Now there are over 580 players that share my interest and I am literally drowning in more games than I can keep up with.
It is easier for me since my group focuses on Correspondence games, but I’ve thrown together a Live tournament with members here and there with no problems at all. The point is, find a tribe and connect with like-minded enthusiasts. If no tribe exists, then try creating one. You might be surprised to find you are very much not alone
It doesn’t have to be all one or the other. GoQuest has this style for those who like it, I think that’s a very good thing. We have our style for those who prefer it this way. This is also good.
We do provide a great many tolerances for blitz, but time wasting moves such as in filling own territory is not one of them at this stage.
It’s not only that 1s thing. The global time allowance is more in the field of semi blitz, almost near a live game on OGS.
Btw i love playing there too sometimes.
I’ll join your group if it happens to be.
