Propose it at your next Go Congress variants tournament 
1 Like
Maybe the best thing to do is to include the feature only for ranked games? In unranked games, who cares if players cannot get to a conclusion: it doesnât matter. This solves the issue for teaching games (which will never be ranked) and preserves the key feature: preventing people from trolling and prolonging a game unecessarily.
7 Likes
IMHO this still is dissatisfying, especially when playing rated games with beginners, which are NOT always âteaching gamesâ.
But also in any games where one player does not fill âneutralâ intersections, which may or may not expose âTeireâ.
Even if youâre right that it is meaningfully bad to have AI end the game for beginners playing ranked games (and youâre wrong), the mods have made clear that theyâre not going to do what you want. The compromise I have offered provides the most important part for both camps: a solution to people who are stalling, and no games ending too quickly for people who are just being taught. Feel free to continue to argue, but I think the compromise I have suggested is one that even mods could agree is better than the status quo.
1 Like
LOL, Iâm also a mod (albeit probably the least active one). What now?
From Dame at Sensei's Library :
Normally, remaining neutral points are filled in at the end of the game by alternation between the players. In Japanese, this process is called dame wo tsumeru
This is how I was taught to end a game.
And thanks for allowing me to feel free to continue to argue, so very kind of you
OTOH, this seems like a perfectly reasonable case to want Anti-Stall too.
2 Likes
I know there are valid arguments for both sides, @benjito.
My point is that stalling is maybe not as big a problem as is deciding a game before it is over.
In a RL tournament weâd just have to exercise patience, no? Or would a referee decide that closing Dame is illegal?
So we have this AI mechanism because most players are impatient, and to satisfy them? 
1 Like
People are way less considerate of others online than in RL.
3 Likes
Yeah⌠Usually players should fill the dames before passing
If youâre playing with rules that uses area scoring, you should fill the dames since those are worth points. If youâre playing RL, you should fill the dames since that makes it easier to count the score properly. If some dames force opponents to fill teires, you should fill at least those forcing dames before passing.
Itâs only when playing online with some ruleset that uses territory scoring and the dames are not forcing, when its generally ok to ignore the dames. But thats only one small subset of all go games.. Although here, on an internet go server where the japanese rules are the most widely used, that one subset of go games are the majority ://
2 Likes
Those who knows the game is over, is stalling. Those who donât knows, are newbies and maybe add a link to some page explaining why the game finished is enough.
You canât put at the same level serious tournament matches and online games where almost anybody cares.
Stall measures is something happened a couple of times only to me AFAIR, and Iâm happy this measure existed when happened. Iâm not sure what we are trying to solve.
We have this AI mechanism because people abuse of it, in the same way there are moderation about AI usage by players. Probably you never played a game in Fox where game ended 50 moves earlier but you are forced to keep placing stones because your opponent denies to resign or finish the game.
4 Likes
Iâm also in favor of keeping the anti-stalling mechanism.
However I do think two changes previously discussed should be implemented:
- The notification to end the game should only be displayed to the player who passed, instead of being displayed to both players. This was previously subject to a poll and there is a large majority in favor.
- Such notification should display two buttons (end the game or continue playing) in order to highlight that this is entirely up to the player and not an obligation.
6 Likes
Benjito made a PR for the first item, but anoek declined it because he thinks the noob should be told they should have resigned by now. I donât really agree with reasoning though.
4 Likes
Do you mean that âwe shouldnât be teaching noobs when itâs time to resignâ?
Or do you mean that displaying the button to both players doesnât really impact this teaching goal?
(I think we do have that teaching goal - we have a whole class of report available and stongly utilised for people to complain about their opponent not resigning when it is time)
1 Like
They would learn to press âpassâ, âpassâ, âpassâ, âaccept AIâ instead of learning to press âresignâ button.
What about showing them this information, but do not show special button?
2 Likes
How about changing the âaccept AIâ button to âpassâ for the person who wasnât passing, so the game can end normally? Or maybe âresignâ if they are losing.
3 Likes
I do feel like the same tool is being used for 2 different reasons and itâs not the right one for both.
The three pass thing is weird, but kind of makes sense for stalling in that itâs an escape hatch for an bad situation. It makes sense to be conservative and make it hard to trigger.
OTOH, education for beginners doesnât need the same gate - it might even make sense to show beginners the message earlier. And of course, nudge them towards existing buttons âpassâ and âresignâ instead of server decision.
5 Likes
The latter, it does a bad job of that goal:
- It only appears in a small fraction of the cases they could learn itâs polite to resign
- It doesnât teach them to resign or pass, but click some weird accept AI button thatâs not part of go rules
- It could have the reverse effect of making them think this is the normal way to end a game, so they donât pass or resign
- Thereâs no text about this lesson to resign
- It discourages players counting and judging the position for themselves, and encourages use of the score estimator
(added quote)
11 Likes
@anoek See above for consideration, as points proved popular.
1 Like
Being able to estimate who is ahead, and how good are both sideâs chances, is a prerequisite for the ability to âresign when appropriateâ.
For beginners who donât have that judgement skill, we should not expect them to resign in any position, neither view it as impolite when they continue playing.
First and foremost they need to learn to judge the position. I doubt that this mechanism helps with that, as there is no explanation beyond âyou lostâ.
The other side comes much more naturally, I believe. Once they have a feeling for being ahead / behind, most people probably resign anyway when they feel lost. If they want to go to counting anyway, that shouldnât be viewed as impolite, as long as they donât stall unnecessarily.
4 Likes
Yup, and I believe that, while âbad playersâ should be âpunishedâ, this shouldnât go so far as to accept the collateral damage of punishing innocent players.
1 Like