Chess Discussions

Probably threefold repetition is more likely to cause the majority of draws rather than stalemate, but I agree with the point about stalemate. Probably one player is winning on material if that happens.

Re the threefold repetition, Xiangqi has something like

In xiangqi, a player—often with a material or positional disadvantage—may attempt to check or chase pieces in a way such that the moves fall in a cycle, preventing the opponent from winning. While this is accepted in Western chess, in xiangqi, the following special rules are used to make it harder to draw the game by endless checking or chasing, regardless of whether the positions of the pieces are repeated or not:

  • Perpetual checks with one piece or several pieces are not allowed; doing so results in a loss.
  • Perpetual chases of any one unprotected piece with one or more pieces, excluding generals and soldiers, are similarly prohibited.[2]
  • If one side perpetually checks and the other side perpetually chases, the checking side has to stop or be ruled to have lost.
  • When neither side violates the rules and both persist in not making an alternate move, the game can be ruled as a draw.
  • When both sides violate the same rule at the same time (note that unlike in western chess, a mutual perpetual check is possible) and both persist in not making an alternate move, the game can be ruled as a draw.

going off of Wikipedia. I’m not sure how it works in practice, but it’s kind of like a “come on, play on or resign, stop trying to draw out the game”.

Shogi has some kind of hybrid I think

If the same game position occurs four times with the same player to move and the same pieces in hand for each player, then the game ends in a repetition draw (千日手 sennichite, lit. “moves for a thousand days”), as long as the positions are not due to perpetual check. Perpetual check (連続王手の千日手) is an illegal move (see above), which ends the game in a loss in tournament play.

(from wikipedia), but again not exactly sure in practice. I say hybrid because it seems to distinguish between repetitions from perpetual check, and repetitions which would make your position worse if you broke them.

In western chess, perpetual check is kind of like an out in a losing position, you have to watch out for or exploit perpetual check in a losing position. But say when there’s a pawn formation and the kings are blocked from entering the opponents side by each other, that might be a legitimate draw still maybe? Trying to find the analogy if you ported the rules from other chess games :slight_smile:

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I haven’t played tournament xiangiqi since as a kid (and never really good at it), however, as far as I remember, the rules against “repeated check” (called 長將) and “repeated chase” (長捉) are akin to the super ko rules, but instead of just repeat once, it is repeated 3 times of the same moves, it would be judged as a loss for the chasers. However, players can opt to change one of the repeated rounds, then there are customs (like in the Go Japanese rules) where a lot of them would be judged as a loss, but quite a few would be a draw (I never remembered all of them, but there are some patterns to follow for remembering), and most crucially, there are an upper limit of rounds (100 for 50 moves each), where no one violates these, the game would also be judged as a draw (by that point, it is faster for starting another match than follow any rules to the end)

中華民國象棋規則113年修訂版.pdf

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The idea of the superko rule is interesting. Even though it’s not properly implemented in some Go rulesets, feels like Chess needs this rule more. I didn’t know it’s already in place in Chinese Chess!

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There’s many endgame positions that are drawn only because of the stalemate rule, for example king vs king + pawn.
It’s possible that more games are decided by three-fold repetition with the normal rules, but that’s maybe because players are more ready to draw because of the already wide draw margin.

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One thing to consider, is that the large draw margin of chess likely contributes to the first player advantage being seen as tolerable. I am also in favor of decreasing draws, with no perpetual check (like Shogi) or stalemate is a win both being acceptable ways to achieve that in my eyes, but I think we should ​beware that a pie rule such as Super Swap-2 may be needed as draws reduce

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That’s not a stalemate though? That’s more like the 50 move rule being cut short and agreeing to a draw early to save time. Stalemate is when you have no legal moves but you’re not in check.

Like if it was black to play here

Many King vs King + Pawn endgames can be defended because of stalemate. It usually boils down to the following position with White to move:

White can either give up the pawn or create a stalemate. Either way ends in a draw.

If stalemate was not a thing, then the side with a pawn would always win (except if the pawn is separated from the king and gets captured soon after).

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Another option to reduce draws is “baring the enemy king wins, unless the opponent can bare your king on the move immediately following, in which case it’s a draw”, which was the rule in some of chess’s genetic ancestors

Chess is inherently drawish and as Samraku’s said attempts to remove that just make the first move advantage bigger so you’ll instead end up with alternating win/loss in multi game match and the coin flip deciding colours decides the match and single game matches more so.

So the obvious solution after lots of boring chess draws is a tiebreak game of Go, which is a better game anyway and has this wonderful thing called komi so draws are incredibly rare and a single game is well-balanced.

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Or a tiebreak of Shogi, aka, chess but better /hjk

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It’s quite common in poker; I don’t see the problem. They could make a rule against it if they wanted, or have just declined the proposal, anyway. It’s not Magnus’s fault that both his opponent and the TD (or whoever was in charge) found his proposal acceptable

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Chess is a drawish game, but I don’t think that’s necessarily a flaw. In my opinion the chess world should lean into this and have shared champions more often (instead of tiebreaks with different time controls/armageddon etc).

However, that has to be decided before the tournament. Changing the rules arbitrarily during the tournament is a bit strange.

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The GOAT is married now https://www.instagram.com/p/DEdEpCssHDq/?igsh=MWV6MDhhZTU5c3dyMg==

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Last month Hikaru ran a tournament sponsored by Kick with several rounds of different time controls and formats. The last format is Chess with Eval Bars!! It was a round robin with 8 players. Watch how Hikaru handled being able to see the eval bar. Btw, this was arranged by chesscom and was unrated.

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TBH I wanted to see how Go players play when they can see the winrate.

I remember there was a player that made a Katago heartbeat kind of monitor, which would beat very fast in critical positions, and then relax if one side was winning.

That was basically playing with an eval bar.

I think it’d be much the same, you might spend longer looking for a move when you see the win rate drop or spike, especially if both players miss something. In the end though, sometimes the ai moves are just blind spots, because we don’t actually know the idea of the sequence it has in mind.

It might be more distracting than helpful unless you were used to it. It’s also not something I would want to be “used to” though.

Magnus Carlsen supports freestyle chess. A new confrontation between enfant terrible and FIDE is in the making.

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“Chess is not haram”

https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/s/3VWHIUaQSJ

Nobody talking about the chess drama happening right now?