Controversial Go opinions

Ddk should have stop doing early 3-3 Invasion many of them don’t know what their doing

Both is fun but Go is far better than chess, you’re just salty if you think otherwise

You could reach Mid-Sdk without reading that much and solely by well understanding on Shapes

Twitch and youtube algorithms hates GO favorable on Chess

Board gamers are Gamers as well

GO is also an E-Sports

Japan should’ve creates More Anime/Manga about Go

Some people quits playing Go earlier or even in mid-way because they know or realize that It’s really hard to become a pro compared to chess. (Idk certain NM-chess said It’s not that “hard” to get “Master” title on Chess compared to become Go-professional)

Dunno if those are controversial enough, and i apologize if i said something nonsense :stuck_out_tongue:

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It’s really hard to become a pro compared to chess. (Idk certain NM-chess said It’s not that “hard” to get “Master” title on Chess compared to become Go-professional)

A Master title doesn’t make you a chess professional.

There are several levels of FIDE title, which can be ordered by required Elo rating:

Title Elo threshold
Grandmaster (GM) 2500
International Master (IM) 2400
FIDE Master (FM) 2300
Woman Grandmaster (WGM) 2300
Candidate Master (CM) 2200
Woman International Master (WIM) 2200
Woman FIDE Master (WFM) 2100
WCM (2000) 2000
National Master (NM) varies but often seems to be around 1800-2200

The 10th-rated player in the world (in live ratings) is Teimour Radjabov at 2765.

The 100th-rated player in the world (in live ratings) is Vladislav Kovalev at 2648.

In my opinion, you can’t claim to be an active male professional if your Elo is < 2550, or 2500 at the lowest, ie. Grandmaster. For women it’s a bit more forgiving; you can perhaps call yourself a female professional at as low as 2300, ie. Woman Grandmaster.

Keep in mind that the division between “professional” and “amateur” chess has never been a clear one, whereas Go has a very long history of trying to clarify the professional system and exclude amateurs. The cultures are different, which makes it hard to even find a proper way to ask the question.

As some answer, though, it’s my impression that the amount of chess players with any Master title, as a proportion of the total active 1 chess community, is much less than the number of Go professionals as compared to the number of amateur Go players.

1 by active, those who play at least, say, five games / week

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Consider, for instance, that between 1935 and '37 the World Chess Champion was Max Euwe, whose main employment was as a maths teacher.

Professional? Or amateur? In Go, this sort of question doesn’t appear as much.

Howard Staunton, unofficial World #1 ca. 1843–'51, was an editor of Shakespeare – professional? Or amateur? Can we imagine Honinbo Shuwa, say, publishing commentaries on haiku? Sometimes Ota Yuzo (Shusaku’s rival) is called an amateur because he never played in the Castle Games, refusing to shave his head, but Sensei’s Library is currently calling him a professional.

The question really goes back to this core issue of “In a time when it’s logistically unfeasible to maintain an Elo-style rating system, even if the concept was understood, how do we work out who is “strong” at the current time, so that the strong players can compete against each other?”

In Japan, though, the idea of a professional became that they were “artisans” or “martial artists”, whose association with amateur players would somehow sully the purity of the craft. This attitude definitely still lingers – otherwise, why are Japanese professionals not permitted to compete in amateur tournaments?

My “controversial opinion” on this topic is that Europe and America should have never introduced an imitative split between the “amateurs” and “professionals”, which isn’t necessary in the 21st century or rooted in our native culture or extant organisational Go structure. A strong player should be considered just a “strong player”, given a rating and dan rank, and not assigned as an “amateur” or “professional”.

Similarly, there’s no need for an exclusive European or American “professional league”, only an open qualification system accessible to these uncategorised “strong players”, who will be competing in national championships and large swisses like the London or Paris Open. My impression is that Western organisers wanted to mimic Oriental systems without properly considering whether they were appropriate, necessary, or helpful.

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See also my first opinion in the thread, that equipment upgrades for tournament kyu players are more important than paying professional salaries or supplying professional prizes.

The Go community needs to think more about such things as beginner outreach, cheap or free learning resources, kyu lectures and, indeed, equipment upgrades, instead of prioritising the elite.

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Very interesting thoughts, kind of a shame to see them buried in a thread like this! :slight_smile:

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I think that IM (Elo 2400) corresponds better to the amateur/pro boundary than GM, also considering that the youngest IMs are almost 11 years old (still older than the youngest pros in go), while the youngest GMs are almost 13 years old (maybe like 3p in go).

I see IM more like a 5d+ EGF amateur, if we’re comparing to Go.

There have been four 12yo GMs in chess history, although none of them are twelve any more (which I know wasn’t excluded by your phrasing, I’m not “correcting you” ^^)

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_prodigy:

Player Age GM Year Note
Sergey Karjakin 12y 7m 1990 2016 World Championship challenger
Gukesh D 12y 7m 2006
Javokhir Sindarov 12y 10m 2005
Praggnanandhaa Rameshbabu 12y 10m 2005 aka “Pragga”

Of course, it also has to be noted that Elo inflates; and since the modern FIDE titles are basedly soley on Elo (since performance norms also derive from Elo) they also inflate.

Therefore Karjakin’s achievement represents a greater feat than the age records made last decade, and in general the Elo benchmarks are always rising. Forty years ago, 2600 was a world top ten rating; now it won’t even land you in the top hundred.

There’s a regular request for FIDE to introduce a Super Grandmaster (SGM) or Elite Grandmaster, etc. title with the threshold of 2700, which currently includes 30–40 players, which is more in line with the situation that existed in the 20th C.

When I compare the age at which these chess prodigies became IM…

Player Age IM Year of birth
Praggnanandhaa Rameshbabu 10y 10m 2005
Gukesh Dommaraju 11y 10m 2006
Javokhir Sindarov 11y 10m 2005
Sergey Karjakin 11y 11m 1990

… with the age at which these go prodigies became pro, …

Player Age pro Year of birth
Cho Hunhyun 9y ?m 1953
Nakamura Sumire 10y 1m 2009
Lee Changho 11y 1m 1975
Cho Chikun 11y 8m 1965

… these ages are quite similar.

So I don’t understand why you would think that the greatest chess prodigies were as weak as 5d EGF when they were 10-12 years old, while the greatest go prodigies were as strong as 7d EGF around that same age. Is chess more difficult than go for children?

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You make a good point, but the data is very nuanced.

The FIDE titles are a measure of performance against many different opponents in the worldwide FIDE pool, but the process by which a player becomes a Go professional involves competition against a relatively small group of fellow insei.

We can get a good idea of how strong Gukesh, Pragga, and Javokhir were when they became professional, in the year before, in the year before that and so on, because this data is accessible. We know who they played against, who they beat, who they lost to and when.

It’s more difficult to know how strong a Go prodigy is.

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I still don’t fully understand. Do you mean to say that these go prodigies may have been weaker than 7d EGF when they became pro (more like 5d EGF, like Ilya Shikshin was at the age of 12)?

When you said

I think that IM (Elo 2400) corresponds better to the amateur/pro boundary than GM

I think there was confusion over whether this statement meant

  1. The line between a “chess amateur” and “chess professional”, or

  2. The line between the chess equivalent to a Go amateur and the chess equivalent to a Go professional

The two can’t be said to be the same thing. My original point that started the discussion was that it is harder to become a “chess professional” than a Go professional, in my opinion.

The discussion is complex because of things like the presence or absence, or proportion, of professional salaries at certain levels and in certain federations, which act as a supplement to prize money. My impression is that there is more of a “salary culture” in professional Go.

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OK, then maybe I should have said 7d EGF ~ IM (Elo 2400), instead of obscuring this with ambiguity about what “professional level” means in chess and go. And perhaps GM is more like 8d EGF.

7d feels high to me.

Are you saying that there are, for instance, no IM-level Go players in Britain?

[Also, I think we should probably get a mod to detach this discussion from the main thread.]

I looked up some data and estimates:

There are about 6 million active chess players in Britain and there are about 60 players with 2400+ FIDE rating. So only 1 in 100k British chess players has a 2400+ FIDE rating. So these 2400+ FIDE ratings are quite rare. IMs are strong!

There are only about 10k active go players in Britain. So it’s not surprising to me that there is less than one 7d+ EGF.

About 12 British go players (i.e. 1 in 1k players) are 5d+ EGF. So in Britain, 5d+ EGF in go is 100 times more common than IM+ in chess, after correcting for active player population.

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But the ongoing conversation shows that it is on-topic as controversial :smiley:

In all seriousness, this thread has flushed out a few good topics worthy of their own discussion, I’ve been wondering about that…

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Nicely said.

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Yeah, this is already one of the best threads of 2021.

Nice job @jmont.

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Stones should be played inside the squares instead of on the intersections

How to: Visualize go this way, instantly make it 30 times easier to count - #22 by yebellz

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The standard answer to this in any field is that a professional is someone who earns their living from the activity. This is not necessarily a judgment on quality. I played music professionally, i.e., earning a professional fee, but never made my living from it. Reuben Fine was one of the top chess players of the 1930s and considered a leading contender for the world championship, but he was a professional psychologist, not a professional chess player. Emanuel Lasker, although a top mathematician, made his living for most of his life from chess (see Hannak’s biography). Steinitz also was a professional for many years, I think.

Are you sure about this? I haven’t followed chess for decades, but once upon a time, Grandmasters got the title by winning two top-rated tournaments (which seems to me like a better method).

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There’s plenty of professional musicians who can’t make a living from it, sadly… Especially in the current pandemic.

I’d go a step further and say that a professional is someone who has the ability to make a living from their activity, even if the circumstances prevent it from actually happening. Someone who has 10 years experience playing in an orchestra, after having concluded a conservatoire education, is without a doubt a professional musician, but may not be able to find an orchestra to play professionally in.

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