Defending against trick plays

With this I can’t agree … methinks there’s no need at all for hate in this game :slight_smile: rather for acknowledgement and appreciation of good play.

If my opponent wins by such as described “trick play”, they played better than me. Yes, it might include hurt ego on my side, but IMNSHO “hate” leads to wrong consequences, either punishing oneself and thus focusing on one’s failure instead of focusing on how to defend against such tricks and succeed, or even abandoning Go.

Greetings, Tom

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It’s a figure of speech. Obviously I don’t want anyone to hate go :stuck_out_tongue:

But my point is that, as you mentioned, losing should be about improving oneself, not getting upset at your opponent.

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Ah, OK, not quite a native speaker here :slight_smile:

Cheers, Tom

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I think this has been a most interesting topic. It definitely got people talking. I believe AVAVT is correct when she says that playing for “trick” moves can stifle your growth in the game. And I always believe in good sportsmanship in GO. It is a game of beauty, honor and respect for your opponent. When I play Poker that is another story…

However as long as move is legal one can play it… If a person wants to play a trick move in time constraint let him/her it means I spent to long thinking earlier… Also I am sure that once you reach a certain level certain trick moves have no effect you know to kill weak invasions etc…

I must confess tonite in a close in person game I stopped my opponent from connecting and then took away freedoms in between other moves. He overlooked connecting his stones on the bottom of the board. I captured them. Was it a trick move? I looked ahead and planned for the possibility… We counted both ways one as if he did not lose the group and one with. He won the first by 2 stones from the komi. I of course won the second way. Either way a good game. I also confess I did not stare at his group in trouble, I played away when possible… So am I a trickster? I do not feel I did anything wrong. And who would not have done the same given the chance?

What about the Japanese Pro Yoda is he a trickster? And who does not love Kuwbara Sensei from the Hikaru series. A great trickster!

Keep playing devastating moves!

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I would like to comment on some aspects of this thread:

  1. I don’t see how playing a “dame” that threatens a 50-point loss is a trick play. It is obviously the sente move with the biggest threat behind it and therefore the correct move. Whether you play it immediately once you see it is the same question I was faced with at a recent tournament: My opponent obviously thought that his corner group was dead, but I knew that he could still get a ko. Should I play the ko-killing stone or bet that the would keep on overlooking the ko? Is this a trick play or a calculated risk to tenuki as well?

  2. It is certainly not true that everything is fair that is according to the rules or that helps you win. On another game server that played mafia/werewolf-games, the community was overrun by a group of newbies who decided to use swearwords in their game. During the discussion they openly stated that they realized that it upset me and hurt my game if they called me bitch, so of course, it is alright to use this fact to win. I left and looked at the server some months later. The former newbies were still there, but all lonely and wondering why there were no people to play games with.
    If you purposefully do things to upset your opponent, (chew gum, drum on the table, take time you don’t need because you know it upsets them) it is certainly dishonorable whether you call it trick play or not.

  3. That leads me to the post that charmingly says

Well no, you just reminded her that you are not nice. I know many people who regard certain styles of plays as aggressive or disagreeable. Touching every stone and starting a fight immediately has nothing to do with the nature of go.

In my go club, I sometimes play (between more competitive games) a relaxed game with a young girl in the club where we do not fight but just divide up the board. It is very meditative and relaxing, and invariably, around our table forms a circle of men who start to give us unsolicitated advice where we should attack and how this game shows that I am five stones weaker than I claim to be.

Yes, you do not need to play a meditative game just for fun, but to tell people that your style of playing is the nature of go and theirs is not, is just ridiculous bullying.

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Ok I will take the bait but just to set the record straight. :smile:

  1. That leads me to the post that charmingly says

Nghtstalker:
Our GO club has a lady who plays for fun and will say that move is not nice, I remind her GO is not a nice game.
Well no, you just reminded her that you are not nice. I know many people who regard certain styles of plays as aggressive or disagreeable. Touching every stone and starting a fight immediately has nothing to do with the nature of go.

My friend, the lady mentioned, was taught GO by me, and has been coming to the club for a year. We also meet on occasion over coffee and a roll in the morning and play GO. We usually laugh and have fun as we play. But yes GO is a game of fighting. Ultimately it is a fight for territory. You can play seriously, blitz, or casually, at different times. But ultimately one wins and one loses. So when I invade she often says that is not nice… to which I remind her GO is not a nice game. I think you will have to ask her whether I am nice or not… :smile: But at least I can be “charming.”

Btw touching every stone and invading everything is both within the rules and acceptable usually players outgrow such play when they are punished for it. But I would not be angry for someone for trying.

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Please point to the place in my post where I contest that it is not “within the rules” to touch every stone. And please expand on what “acceptable” means except that you don’t mind it and that means that everyone else needs to share your opinion. I reacted to your condescending tone and you confirmed my impression by explaining to me the rules of go.

So, if I understand correctly, this sort of ridiculous bullying is acceptable because many people you know agree with it? Customs and standards vary widely, so I don;t see how it is really possible or reasonable to try to claim stylistic superiority. Boxers can’t punch below the belt, ok, but you can’t say “You jab too often!”

I don’t hear any condescension from Nghtstalker, personally. All styles are “the nature of go” (just as all human behavior is “human nature”) - it is a rather wide and inclusive area! I think condescension comes more from trying to assert one’s own personal viewpoint as being the best for everyone.

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Apparently, this is called “mansplaining.” :laughing:

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I always thought playing complicated moves when you have a time advantage was just good play.
I wouldn’t have called it a trick move.

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Honestly, this is not really true. The “trick plays” are part of the game. The game of go is ruthless, it is kill or be killed. All is fair in love and war. Go is a war game. tricks are meant to be used. What else was Hannibal’s use of torches on cattle to make the enemy back off than a trick? and The Roman’s box tactic in which th front line was weak but if you broke through you were suddenly surrounded. War is ABOUT tricks and deception. these “trick plays” are merely another means to an end. If you dont know how to counteract them, then learn

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It is Nghtstalker who claims to his “lady friend” that “nice” is not a proper style of go. I cite “many people” to refute this all-encompassing claim.

Instead of agreeing with me (because my stance agrees with the opinion that you pretend to adhere to) you criticize me exactly for what I am criticizing in Nghtstalker’s post (who doesn’t need to acquiesce to his friend’s preference for a certain style but who has no right to claim that his style is the true nature of go which I certainly did not claim at all). This is called projection. And it is a disgusting discussion tactics which is why I bowed out of the discussion before. But since this thread has been revived and I had to read your response again I have taken the time to tell you my opinion.

Well I find this topic interesting and had time to read most of the comments made.

As a 12 years of Go Player and actually a Real Blitz Player - I even ended and scored a 2 secs blitz game at 19x19 on KGS when I was weaker, I must admit that Trick Plays are most of the time overplays…

But;

  1. When playing blitz;
    a)It is a must since your opponent will have little amount of time to response and will focus on the last move that has been played and will probably play around that stone and fall into the trap.
    b)It will be right choice of trying out a Trick Play just because blitz players play so much games and it worths trying.
    c)It wouldn’t be an overplay most of the time as Overplay at Sensei's Library refers because it will work with the big possibilitiy.

All a-b-c above mostly counts for 19x19 sized board. Because bigger the size of the board harder to find the right move.

  1. When playing slow games;
    a)Your opponent will find your move funny most of the time just because you just spend KO threats for nothing.
    b)If it’s a Joseki Trick Play and the opponent doesn’t know the right answer, he/she has option to play somewhere else or has time to think about. Possibly will have a nice answer.
    c)Only if the rank difference is too much it worths playing trick plays. Or you know your opponent from before and how will he/she answer. And you just try out.

As a result; from my point of view if you know what you are doing that’s fine.

  • If you want to succeed you have to imagine first, that way the Brain will make you do the impossible.

  • And another thing is the Brain tends to believe (to something or anything).

So if you want to win with playing overplays or Trick Plays, just don’t believe anything you see, read, hear in the first time and imagine the impossible because your Brain is capable of it but you just don’t know and explore it Yet.

If you want to know more about your Brain read Incognito: The Secret Lives of the Brain by David Eagleman