@kickaha: somehow I don’t understand the reason, why Japanese rules should be especially biased towards the attacker. Which (common) rules don’t have that effect you describe?
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in area scoring (e.g. chinese) you dont lose yourself a point by defending inside your own territory. therefore the attacker gifts points to the defender by playing an attack/invasion that doesnt work even if it is answered.
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Ah, thx now I get were you’re going: in Japanese scoring, the sum of capturing the enemy stone (+1) and playing on your own area to answer (-1) is zero, while you would gain one point in area/Chinese scoring.
Interesting point. I guess because better players play less “ridiculous” moves in the enemy’s area this is not such a big issue later on.
@kickaha : that’s a misunderstanding about the rules, as in this scenario they both produce the same result.
Note that, yes, in area scoring the stones you place in your territory don’t cost you points, but in area scoring prisoners don’t net you points either.
So it’s a choice between counting your stones as points, or counting your opponent stones as extra points (1 prisoner + 1 point of territory). If you are just answering your opponent moves in your territory, the result is going to be the same.
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Hi,
Everything has already been said so I only want to join some of you who already answered.
Commitment is part of the game and if till the end one wants to win despite of the smell of a big defeat, that’s a nice skill.
And for the player who feels or is very ahead, he’s trained to stay focused on the game since concentration is obviously essential to the game.
Sharpen your reading skills, play only when necessary and do that within the time you have especially in live games;)
I would like to draw a comparison with an even game with no reverse komi between two players of very big rank difference… I don’t know… let’s say 1d vs. 1p to make it obvious.
It’s expected 1p will win but I imagine the 1d gets an opportunity to play a very difficult and challenging game and if I were that player I could prefer not to resign.
Because sometimes you play games just for improving not for winning them. Somehow I guess it raises the point of not feeling so hurt in losing as far as you are learning.
Unfortunately, improving and winning stay strongly undissociable in our mind.
Arnaud
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@uPWarrior : i didnt realize prisoners werent points in area scoring. thanks for clearing that up.
this clearly means that the whole world plays go wrong and i just discovered it 
@arnaudgo : very true. thinking about it that way will certainly help dealing with these kinds of scenarios.
i still think what gets some of us mad about them is the imbalance in risk-reward and reading effort that late invasions mean for the two players.
i will heed the advice and try to enjoy and learn from every game… even more so now that i know there is no way out 
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While you are right that following your opponent by placing 1 move for every 1 move he plays has no difference in both rule sets, there is actually a difference in potential loss to the attacker depending on the rule sets.
In Chinese rules the opponent is free to invade freely at the end of the game without any loss even if the other player passes all the way, whereas in Japanese rules the other player will be getting a free point every move he passes when he ignores a non-viable invading move. It will only have no difference with Chinese rules if the other player responds each time.
Also note that this is a free attempt with no repercussions, other than being disrespectful, only when all other moves are played. Otherwise you are still giving a free point everytime the other player ignores and plays other moves (even dame moves).
But this advantage in Chinese rules applies both ways to attacker and defender. If all other viable moves have been played and I am paranoid of some leftover aji or I’m just not good in my life and death then I can just play an extra move in my own territory too at no loss.
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Interestingly opposed to majority of what I have read here, I for one do think, that such moves, when done clearly in desperate attempts are rude and I see nothing wrong with politely reminding you opponent that he is unnecesarily prolonging the game.
In proffesional games it is quite customary and indeed polite to resign when you are clearly behind rather than “milking the board” Even my book of go clearly states that “One should win trough a better form and superior strategy, not trough a silly mistake of your opponent, such a victory is meaningless.”
And OF COURSE it is ok to try and probe a little, but seeing that my opponent is vigil I would rather accept my defeat with dignity rather then trying in vain 20 times in different places. And even if it did work, that usually just means that he lost the interest in the game and made a mistake. Not because he was not skilled enough, but because it wasn’t fun for him anymore and he stopped paying attention. Basically I ruined the game for him and that is shamefull.
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i think so too… it can be impolite and i wouldnt bother playing a late attack unless i am at least confident it has a chance of working even if my opponent answers correctly. there is a great difference between trying a sequence and failing and mindlessly playing stones in hopes of an opportunity presenting itself.
if i find myself in a situation where i see no real way of coming back and still wish to finish the game i just say so and ask my opponent if he/she is ok with finishing the game anyway. i think this is preferrable to forcing my opponent to tell me off 
. also asking the question shows that i undestand the situation might be uncomfortable for him/her and that im not playing unreasonable moves in a lost game to slight him/her.
i have mostly played correspondence games recently though, where the issue is not the same as it would be in a live game.
the consensus here seems to be that it is more important to learn to deal with these situations and see them as a challenge than to change an opponents behaviour, which shows great attitude and sportsmanship of course 
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One super productive way to deal with this is to use this time to practice your counting. See if your count matches up with the score at the end!
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I honestly cannot understand how you, on one hand, can recognize that somebody is desperate, and, on the other hand, complain about them being rude … is it not clear that IF somebody is desperate, they CANNOT EVEN THINK about what others may think of as good or bad manners? That, in such a situation, the question whether a move is “polite” or not (IMNVHO from an elitist point of view), is totally outside of their range of vision? Have you then never been afraid of something or somebody?
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I may play 30k mistakes in time pressure but certainly not because I am desperate. I don’t get annoyed by 30k players that play like 30k, I get annoyed by 10k players that play like 30k for like 50 moves before finally resigning or worse, play it all the way to the end. At which some point I seriously consider just leaving for I couldnt care less and that douche is not worth my time.
I am not sure whether I understand you correctly. I sometimes tend to use stronger words in english, maybe that’s the problem. When I write desperate I do not mean they are really afraid with shaking hands and unable to think clearly (I have no idea why one would be scared by losing a game - unless some penalty is involved…). I simply mean that they see they are clearly losing and being unable to accept defeat with grace, they are just trying every move no matter how obviously doomed the attempt is and hoping the opponent will make a silly mistake and they will win that way.
It is my opinion that such moves (while understandable) are rude nonetheless. And as was already discussed before we’re not talking about people who just learned the game and may not have clear vision about the situation.
That’s a good idea actualy, thank you 
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I think we need some analogy to Hanlon’s Razor for Go
Maybe it’s different philosophies or attitudes …
- E.g. I don’t believe in stupidity, but rather that some people are, sort of, in a state of being “blocked”. (And I know this state of being “blocked” better than I’d like to admit.)
- A friend of mine says: “stupid are they who do stupid things”.
- Allegedly there is a saying in Japan that “The way one plays Go mirrors one’s mind.”
And, moving a bit sidewise, I’d like to share with you:
http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/S16.2/index.html
See that move below:
I must say, I find this quite awesome. Like … in a game with a child, or a teaching game, showing the opponent their weak spots but not exploiting them more than necessary to win the game … perhaps also the only polite way to show the opponent that it’s appropriate to resign …
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that F1 is indeed awesome. i wil try to remember it for future teaching games since i have 2 beginners at my mercy atm 
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Upon re-reading one of my comments …[quote=“trohde, post:3, topic:7943”]
I think the way you put it here it is actually “polite”, but I’d advise against commenting that way.[/quote]
@dzikaszmija, I’d like to relativize my above statement … IMO your idea of how to talk to your opponent is really nice, friendly, polite (especially since what you say also contains an explanation of why the opponent’s move probably won’t work) — IF you know them, or if you’d already have some friendly chat exchange, i.e. if you have already acquainted yourselves with each other. Perhaps even better if alleviated with something like “… but let’s see …” or something.
I think it all depends on how well you know each other (even if only virtually).
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This thread will probably never die, I’m guessing this “problem” is nearly as old as the game.
I think I’ve commented some time ago, and my opinion on the matter may have evolved a bit with experience of both my games and watching stronger players. Without going too deep into it, it’s ultimately a question of etiquette. I personally try to be respectful and show sportsmanship in my chat with my opponent. I realize that at some point inside play will end up in a -1 point gote play by my opponent. Do I really want to be angry and rude over that?
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Hello,
this thread Is actually very interesting. As a new player, I usually ask for the opponent’s permission to make desperate moves, and i want to explore simply because it is interesting to see why and how it is impossible.
Personaly, I disagree whith the opinion that winning is the goal. Playing is the goal, and winning is just a bonus.
Best.
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This is beautiful, thank you. I often forget this, and then it hurts when I lose, or my head swells when I win, both I dislike, and “playing is the goal” really is a great attitude for a game that is said to reflect our minds, rather than to be compulsively competitive. I often say that I like Go because of the enjoyable tickling in my brains. I feel this when I realize that I’m playing elegantly, but also when I see my opponent do so, and I want to learn not to let the feeling of personal defeat overwhelm me when the latter happens.