Do we really need a chess.com for Go?

I’d like to point out that growing go online doesn’t necessarily equate to growing IRL go. We can take chess as an example - while online chess thrived during covid, (needless to say) IRL chess suffered.

Personally I dislike all these gamification ideas. There is a thin line between “providing optimal user experience” and “inviting unhealthy addiction”. There is generally a trend that people spend too much time online instead of at local meetups, and in this sense, it could be harmful.

I much prefer my local go club meetings over playing somebody “random” online (possibly even without exchanging words). But if there’s no go club nearby, you can still schedule an online meeting with friends, e.g. on a discord voice channel. No need for a massive user base where you can find a random game 24/7, if you ask me.

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Well I suppose one positive of a large user base is when you are more likely or can nearly guarantee to be able to play with a person of your level.

A lot of people prefer even and competitive games, and while you can achieve that to an extent with handicap in Go, I think people can also get a bit tired of playing a similar handicap over and over, or having a one sided game over and over.

I think in small go clubs or small friend groups it can be the case there can be large rating/skill differences, or even if it starts off close, one person can improve faster than another.


I agree though with @pwsiegel that Chess thrived online, particularly during and since the pandemic from a lot of online streaming, marketing, broadcasting and from other aspects of media attention and media (tv show).

They had a couple of articles talking about it

and how they needed to upgrade their servers to keep up with it

There was also a history video they put up (I haven’t watched it but I’m considering watching it)


I think Go Magic are doing a lot of things right,

  • they’re very visible with ads and with social media posts,
  • they’re making some content from their courses free so that you can decide to purchase it or a membership,
  • they have a discord server to encourage a community,
  • they post blogs/articles to keep people interested at all levels of engagement (not everyone wants to be the best player in the world, and some people are happy with more casual stuff. I’m like that with chess news and things)
  • I think they also co-run/took over/host a podcast now, the All things Go podcast.

I think the gamification they have (the skill tree and XP) isn’t a bad kind of gamification unlike what @martin3141 is alluding to. I think generally there’s good and bad gamification and it partly depends on the purpose of it. If it’s to help you learn and stay engaged it can be good, if it’s to exploit you and to exploit money out of you it can be bad. I think that’s generally the kind people have objected to like lootboxes in other console games.

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Go moon was a magazine made by a Dutch player with lot of pro games, news…
Go world was the promoting go magazine linked to the Japanese federation in English with good quality and prolific insights. Was entertaining for the go news too.

Go Olympics, I refered to the WMSG 2008 with players from almost all countries which could have representatives, not a small event at all as you think. You met players from north Korea, Chile, South Africa, India, just to mention a few unusual ones. CJKT brought a huge part of their top players, lee se dol, gu li, Yoda, and not only them.. A rough estimate is that like 80% of the very top world players joined. Lasted like 2 weeks with thousands of players. Quite an incredible event with 0 cover by western médias… Yes zero so It’s one of the reason that I always feel there is still a long long way until go starts to be part of the western culture.

Yep they are doing quite all the possible to promote in a modern way and that could build a new community. Let see if they reach better as all was made before them in an attempt to bring more people to the game. Let see about the commercial side too how far people will accept it.

Quite 2 different worlds in fact. Let’s take introduction to the game and teaching: It so consuming your time and much less efficient online as OTB. An explanation which takes a few secs will take mns online. Of course there are still some advantages online (like the script you can keep) and basically the access to a world community, no more distance.
Maybe younger generation care less about wood and stones, and your partner in front of you. For me it’s a big loss of QoL in exchange for the availability.

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I’m a very new player coming from chess, and have both found myself wishing for “a more Chess.com-like experience” and have found Go Magic to be the best educational resource for their formal courses and drills. Some random thoughts from a set of fresh eyes:

  • I’m dying for a better native mobile client than using OGS or Go Magic in a web browser, or using one of the two not-particularly-polished iOS OGS clients. I’m so annoyed, I suspect I’ll end up building this myself.
  • OGS’s UGC puzzles rock and have some extremely high-quality content, but Go Magic’s streamlined unified system (courses + Duolingo skill tree) are so much more coherent for a complete beginner
  • Coming from chess, it’s a surprise to me that I can’t always immediately matchmake into a 9x9 game whenever I want on OGS. I get that one solution here is probably “jump up to 19x19”, and another solution is “make Go more popular in the West”, and a third viewpoint expressed in this thread is “that’s a feature, not a bug”
  • The thing I miss most from chess.com is the detailed AI analysis that doesn’t just say “here’s the move where your win chance really tanked”, but automatically shows you both the bad line implied by your bad move as well as the optimal line that follows from the optimal move (which you can theoretically accomplish even locally with KataGo and your preferred frontend clicking through recommended moves one by one, but not having to do that work yourself makes game review much easier!). They also have (and had pre-LLM, so it’s not all LLM nonsense) nifty AI-generated explanations along the lines of “oh yeah, this move is bad because you hung your bishop”. The latter is a more difficult problem (and probably more difficult for Go than chess), but the former seems purely a UX concern, not a technical limitation of current Go engines.

I’m incapable of leaving my house due to chronic illness (and fluctuating energy levels make it difficult to commit to consistent game times for synchronous games with online friends), so it’s difficult for me to grapple with the ways in which Go lends itself more to local club culture. I’d probably be less hungry for something “more like chess.com” if I had the ability to find in-person community and learn that way.

I imagine a big part of the debate is that online chess (led by chess.com and lichess) fundamentally changed the culture of chess, in both good and bad ways. It makes sense people would feel strongly in both directions.

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The culture of local Go clubs was already in transition for a while in CJKT (China, Japan, Korean, Taiwan) regions. Here in Taipei (in Taiwan), one of the old Go clubhouses opened for more than 50 years in the center of Taipei, closed down last month (just a few days ago). They simply couldn’t keep up for the increasing rent and the reducing customers. However, a new Go caffee opened ealier this year also in Taipei, and lends more to a “table top” game gathering space, than the traditional Go club (people don’t go there to meet people, but for shopping and playing games, with events organized by the shop, not by clubs).

And the online Go servers like Foxwq and Tygem, changed the way players train and play IRL. The over the board play became more of a friendly gathering, or very serious tournaments, and not in between. Even if we have practice games in Go classes between students, after class practices now are almost exclusively online for them, since they can accumulate many games and test against all types of opponents quickly, instead of finding practice partners or club opening hours. And the transistion happened relatively recently, in the 2010s.

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Yeah this a dream for all AI in go users but a much more difficult problem as what it seems.

@Counting_Zenist

Quite interesting observation but I have no proof/idea that this is a phenomenon you can generalize further to the whole CJKT. Locally I can trust you

In France, club usually don’t pay rent or avoid it at least. Many benefit from some social structure (house of youth…) or play in a coffee bar place, supposed to be a win-win situation by attracting customers

I remember one time a club holding their meeting in a table top game shop but it didn’t end up too well because too many customers were attracted by weiqi only( and they weren’t the best buyers for the shop) .

I left China 3-4 years ago. The meeting places I was aware of their existence were still well running with many people. Collective meal still organized. The small change I noticed was sometimes a computer in a corner.

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One of our two meetings a week is in a boardgame pub (used to be alcohol free). Beside us there’s a chess meeting, and around generally are people playing other boardgames. It works quite well, have a beer or a pizza etc.

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Nice! How many people gather to play go? That place seems to be huge.

Not that big, but there’s a good few tables available. Maybe on a good day 8-10 people playing Go, sometimes more like 4 or 6. There can be a lot playing chess and occasionally people come over interested to learn the rules. Chess and Go also work better with even numbers of people so sometimes an extra person waiting to play chess might want to learn Go, and I’m happy to play multiple Go games at once if need be.

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Welcome and thanks for your contributions.

The frontend of OGS is open source, and some of the apps might also allow individual contributions, but there’s threads for apps like Sente and Surround so you could make suggestions there.

But if you have a vision for another mobile app/interface go for it :slight_smile:

Yeah it could probably take a good bit of work for someone to be able to match GoMagic’s content and the way the skill tree works. Who knows, maybe they can do some collab or something like they suggest in their slide deck pitch.

Agreed, though I also play much more niche two player games than Go, and you’d be lucky to find a live game at all that wasn’t prearranged. A lot of niche games only get played in correspondence until they hit a big enough following with people playing regularly :slight_smile:

Probably some marketing is needed, and maybe even a way to market 9x9 as a quick fun alternative to 19x19 to get people to play it even if they prefer 19x19, but just don’t have time for a full 19x19 game.

Maybe such suggestions can be combined into a bigger thread about improving the AI analysis. For example there was a recent thread

about improving the AI feedback, so maybe we could collect a few ideas there and see if there’s a few big improvements that could be made at once.

You might be able to find discord groups, that while won’t exactly replicate the club feeling, but can still give a sense of community.

The forums is also a community in one sense, and maybe the main site english chat is another.

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Obviously, it is different from place to place, CJKT are a very big area on Earth. And as I stated, the place closed down here in Taiwan was last month just a few days ago, and there are new places opening up, but in a different “style”. They are in transition over time for decades, not disappearing altogether. The traditional Go clubs, including players can betting certainly getting phased out.

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I found OGS by googling “what is the chess.com/lichess of GO”
OGS is more like lichess ( open sourced, free , Run by moderator )
In chess all the top players play on these two. Tournament with cash prizes are run on chess.com and they pay top streamers to play there. So it is a proper business.

I do think it would be nice if GO was more united internationally. There are so many servers it dilutes you chances of getting a match at you level and preferences.
That being said I think language has a lot to do with it. Chess dominates in the west where we use English as the Lingua Franca. These massive Asia servers where the Game is more popular are in generally in native language and I don’t know if a Japanese person talks to a Korean person in a common the way a polish and Italian would use English
That being said. OGS to the moon → its has the best chance of truly being that international site.

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Before I begin, I didn’t read every single response in here, but I read enough to make me want to respond with my own thoughts and opinions.

The first thing I want to touch on…Why is Go not as popular as chess in the West?

There are various reasons for this, and they span from a variety of different logical sources. There are the cultural roots of the game to consider, the length of the game, and the abstract nature of the game itself when compared to chess (in that each piece in chess has a different function by virtue of its type and opening placement on the board).

Which leads on to another point…How can we grow the game of Go in the West?

We, we already are. Having these discussions is an important part of growing the community, as we all learn to get a better sense of what it is we seek to grow within that community. We all want to see OGS flourish and for more super-strong players to populate OGS so that it becomes a competitor for the other Go servers out there, which routinely pull in tens of thousands of players daily.

And yet here we are… It’s not that the go community is stagnant… far from it in my opinion. I see new players come to OGS all the time, and engage with the community and then quickly go on to spend rather a lot of money on things they probably are never going to get much use out of (Super fancy go boards with the best stones).

Next question…Who should be responsible, or carry the burden of growing the game outside of the avenues that already exist?

It has been mentioned that money is needed to grow go…and…. There is merit in that. There has also been the question of who is paying that money, and it has been answered that it’s us… the community… from which the money must eventually come, but we can’t get more money without first investing, and it all becomes a rather cyclical stream of thoughts that eventually leads nowhere.

We have talked in the past about official organisations that already exist that should carry that responsibility…and by and large… they are. They are doing their level best with the membership costs they get to put events on, and make them worth the time it takes to travel to events, and even try to make them accessible… I speak here of the BGA (British Go Association), which, while I’m no ardent fan, I do not mind paying the small cost every year to remain a member, even if I cannot attend any of the events.

Most notably, in my opinion, is their pushing of youth go tournaments, and international cooperation of go schools in Europe, and indeed with youth international tournaments as well, I think ( may need to be fact checked on some of this).

The organisations that exist can only do what they can do.

Which neatly brings me to my final thoughts and conclusions, ideas and opinions.

Go isn’t dead. But the burden of growing GO belongs not to an organisation, a business, or a single person… it belongs to all of us, globally, to grow the game. It depends on acts of goodwill and patience. It depends on taking the time out of our day to help a new player come to terms with the game and repeating the same advice over and over again to all the different players of all the different skill levels, as we all help each other grow and motivate each other.

Ultimately, we are collectively responsible for growing Go. Some people want to make a business of it because that is a proven way to drive interest. People follow money, and so do interests. Be it in the making of a business or the prizes in a tournament. And rightly so that money has to come from somewhere… and it has to, ultimately, come from us… the community.

Yet, as a disabled person who isn’t really able to financially invest in things, even the things I want most… sometimes even the things I need as I live close to the line of poverty (I don’t say this for sympathy, I say it as a matter of fact).

But there are other ways to drive interest in something… to make it more public, to force it into the mainstream in even small ways…. and it’s already happening. But it’s slow.

My main evidence for this is simple… Twitch. The Twitch Go community has been thriving in the last year or so, with regular and new streamers picking up streaming and playing go, pulling in audiences, and very, very often we see people say, “What is this game, looks like checkers”.

So if you want the game to grow and have the time, money and ability to do so, perhaps you should make content. Making content is often a thankless job but it works, and often, you will never make enough money to make a living, from from this you create mini satellite communities that root for you… that want you to do well… and from that you create online steaming events that you can advertise in forums and in other spaces that will get the word out, draw larger audiences and eventially draw more people in.

This is, of course, one avenue. And it’s even theoretically possible to make a living from it, as we know one streamer who does… they also teach and supplement their income in other ways… but they stream and bring people into the community all the time. And actively introduce the game to various new communities.

But it all comes back to community, and the burden of growing that community doesn’t belong to any single thing or person but rather the community to which that thing belongs. Yes… Chess.com has grown the chess community, but why? Because they loved the game, loved the community and saw an opportunity to make money…while actively growing the community. I cannot say that I begrudge Go Magic for attempting to do something similar, even if I do think it’s something of a doomed operation (though I hope I’m wrong).

Anyways… that’s my ramble on this topic done.

Edit:

As an addition to the idea that the growth of the go community belongs to us…the members of the community, and we should all do as much as we reasons can to grow the community, there are few people I can think of that have done as much as @JethOrensin for their writing and creating a go book for beginners, and starting a project to introduce Go to as many people as possible by having this book translated into as many languages as they can.

The above is a link to their website. Jeth has been diligently working on this project for years, some of you may know this project well. But I point this out specifically because this is exactly the kind of thing we need to be doing more of, if we are able… Jeth remains a bastion of hope for growing the Go community and deserves far more recognition than they probable have received.

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