Download SGF greyed out

[shinuito]

@Eugene

Yes - it’s about context.

Here in an online go context, in a thread about a cheat prevention measure, is that a great context to promote a tool that has obvious appeal for online go cheating?

I mean I see your point also, the rationale for disabling download as defining the context of the thread.

[Groin]

I completely agree on the live game part only.

I think that it will be a loss in correspondence where analysing your game during gameplay is something quite shared in the mind of the players. Whatever the OGS tools proposed to mitigate this novelty.

I join this:

@Eugene

I wonder if the time has arrived where we should just accept it … play your game, don’t worry what your opponent is doing… certainly would free a lot of resources for other improvements, but will people still want any resources when they know that most play is not human. My bot vs yours…

I’d say that by depreciating the functionality for no cheaters you may get the opposite as the expected result. Non cheaters getting an incentive to find ways to do as they used to and start first steps to unregular use (or go somewhere else where they could still use their organization).

[Eugene]

I’m moderately persuaded by this ^^

Since this would make it worth turning back on SGF download for correspondence on a “cheat prevention” argument and we’d just turn it back on if we’re going to abandon cheat prevention anyhow (my open question) I might set about that (getting it turned back on for correspondence).

My question is genuine though.

Initiatives that make it easier to cheat are defended.

Initiatives that make it harder to cheat are carefully assessed and pushed back on.

If y’all want cheat minimization, it wouldn’t hurt to applaud it from time to time, and maybe think twice before promoting means of cheating. The “war against cheating” is one of information and attrition. It does make a difference, to not talk about things we’d rather folk not do.

(This is also why Groin’s point is potent: it makes a difference to avoid pushing people to do things we don’t want them to do).

It might not always appear that way, but actually OGS development is driven by community sentiment.

Personally, as someone doing anti cheat work, this thread, and the post promoting the SGF generation tool, doesn’t fill me with energy for anti-cheat activity.

I ponder why it is that we got a post pointing out a way to avoid an anti-cheating measure just introduced, rather than a flag on the post advertising a tool that can be used for cheating

[garlicsoup]

@Eugene

I ponder why it is that we got a post pointing out a way to avoid an anti-cheating measure just introduced, rather than a flag on the post advertising a tool that can be used for cheating

(and from the other thread:)

@Eugene

Why didn’t the OGS community pile in here saying “take your online cheating tool away please”?

Maybe most of us are unaware of the current extent of cheating; certainly, few would be as aware as you are.

I read that post and thought, I can’t use this (I prefer my telephone not to be “smart”) but if I could that sounds like a neat tool. It didn’t cross my mind that people would use it to cheat until you said so. Nor would I have thought to connect these two threads.

Now all of a sudden another contemporary topic is coming to mind: rank deflation. I guess if there’s widespread cheating (more than just bot manipulation, the effects of which are secondary) that could explain why the honest mainstream experiences ranks stagnating and falling.

[Eugene]

@garlicsoup

Maybe most of us are unaware of the current extent of cheating

That’s a wonderful thought.

It really could be true.

Hopefully in part because we’ve been working hard to minimize it

@garlicsoup

that could explain why the honest mainstream experiences ranks stagnating and falling.

It’s a factor that gets discussed. But note that simply changing playing styles, new knowledge from AI play that is not cheating has a similar effect on older ranks.

[garlicsoup]

@Eugene

But note that simply changing playing styles, new knowledge from AI play that is not cheating has a similar effect on older ranks.

This is such a fascinating area that I feel I’ll never be able to keep up with let alone understand. Very curious how big this effect is, at different skill levels.

[Eugene]

Yeah goodness knows - it’s all hard to measure, sometimes even hard to just “reason about”.

[godeon]

@Eugene

Nice move, promoting a cheating tool.

It’s a really useful app which solves problems many go players face, saving their real world games.
Some tools will always be dual use, but condemning them completely from the forum is not the right path imo.

This reddit thread shows the community calling out cheating tools, when they come up. https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments/1gh4w7x/i_developed_an_app_that_can_show_the_winning_rate/

Most go players know how to cheat and many how to hide it. The efforts of hiding information are minimal. I agree that all temptations directly on OGS should be minimized like downloads in ongoing games. But AI tools outside OGS are too present in the community to hide them somehow.

Improving the detection methods will be the more effective way.