Feature Request: Optional pronouns in the title card

OGS Development
21

I think the title whatever thing is just noise, in the plain sense - distracting from the important elements on the game page.
I do have to add that I generally tend to be a minimalist when it comes to design :shrug:

I do not care about my opponents gender and I see no reason for my opponent to care about my gender, as well. And, god forbid, if they use the wrong pronoun? I think I’ll be able to suppress my rage to correct them in that case :D.

And for talk about games? I think “B” and “W” are shorter than any pronouns anyway.

PS: In the worst case, the title textbox will just become a new door for inserting spinning turtles… I am not sure yet if that is a pro or contra argument…

6 Likes
22

Put it on its own line

1 Like
23

Now, I don’t want to step on anyone’s toes or cause any offense, but really, I’m against gender being something that is put into the title card. For me, its totally useless information.

I’m aware that this is coming from me, a person with a gendered term in his very username… but, I do not see gender as a be-all and end-all on OGS. If it is something that you wish to include as part of the Profile information, then cool, I’m all for that, and for having the option to display your gender identity on your profile, but when I’m playing a game, I don’t think I’ve ever considered what gender person I’m playing again. The only thing I care about when I look at the title cards is their rank, and what colour they or I am. As well as being an easy access to their profile to see if I have played that person before.

I’m not opposed to gender politics, and personally I’m on the side of people who wish to be identified at whatever gender they feel they are. I feel I am Male, I identify as male, that’s all well and good.

I understand the misgendering of people in chat, and it may get annoying, or dare I even tread on to the term “Triggered”… I get it. But at the same time, if someone does not take well to being asked to refer to you as your gender, then that is why we have Mods.

I’ve misgendered @Gia the other day, it happens, but it’s not the end of the world.

Beyond the lack of necessity for such a thing to be on the title card, is the potential logistics, which, I’m not entirely certain of because I’m no coder/ developer, but its work none the less. And, the design is a key, if something is unpleasant to look at in the interface, it does affect how people feel about OGS, and playing on that platform. Which is why some people opt for the Zen Mode option when playing a game.

In summary, I don’t think its a necessary addition to the player card in games, but should certainly be made available as part of the profile page. And introducing something like this on the player card may well be more damaging, in terms of appearance, than has been perhaps considered.

((Many apologies, if I have indeed offended anyone, that isn’t my intention, and I only wish to speak from a perspective of keeping OGS the best possible place it can be for playing GO.))

9 Likes
24

This thread is getting kind of off scattered so let me clear a few things up:

  1. This feature would be optional. Nobody would be forced to reveal their gender/pronouns. If you don’t care how your opponent perceives you, you are free to leave this field empty, and nothing will be added to your title/player card.
  2. This feature would not take part in any gender politics. It would not state how many genders there are, if it’s important, etc. It will simply allow the players who prefer a certain pronoun to be able to discreetly declare it without interruptions. This feature could be carefully crafted to sway away from the supposed gender politics, e.g. we would not ask for peoples “gender”, but their “pronouns”.
  3. This feature could be implemented with a free text field. This is to avoid any language issues (gendered pronouns don’t exist in all languages), as well as to accommodate for different and diverse needs. We would not force “strange pronouns” on anyone as people can also leave this field empty.
  4. If your opponent chooses to fill in this field, and you see their preferred pronouns in the player/title card, you are free to ignore it. You can refer to your opponent by their stone color, the Sensei’s Library gendered stone color system, etc. I’m sure steps can be taken to make this minimally intrusive to the UI, and you are free to still play in zen mode and never know about this at all. If you are strongly opposed to knowing which pronoun you opponent prefers, I’m sure a complimentary feature could be added in you settings page to always hide it.
  5. The stated purpose of this feature would be to allow people to talk about you in third person, in a conversation you might not even be present (like on a live stream) to correct them. This is a non-issue to a lot of players. Those players are free to leave this field blank.

I want to reiterate point 2 (since that is where this thread seem to divert): This feature would not care about any gender politics. It would not take sides in the supposed gender politics. We would not try to answer any questions about “how many genders/sexes” there are. It would simply allow the people to whom this is important to declare this information. If this feature was proposing we should force people to declare their gender and provide limited options, that would be taking side. I would never propose such a feature.

I’ve seen many conferences take have stickers ready with the most common pronouns, which participants can grab and stick to their name tag if they like. Conference goers are free to not take these sticker, they are free to ignore them if a co-participant uses them (although it would be considered rude) etc. I don’t see this feature as being any different.

9 Likes
25

If you don’t want anyone to know your gender, there could be a they/them option. It kind of sounds weird but read this out loud to yourself:

He went to the park. At the park he got some ice cream. Then someone asked him to play.

They went to the park. At the park they got some ice cream. Them someone asked them to play.

Still sounds fine.

2 Likes
26

or… just a no text option…

EDIT: to be clear, I’m all for this, it just seemed like they/them would appeal more to nonbinaries than those just wanting to conceal their gender – who would probably prefer not having to deal with this function in the first place

7 Likes
27

I understand what you are saying, I just don’t agree that there is a necessity for such a thing. I support a free text field in the profile page, but I see no reason to include pronouns in the title card/ game card.

Disregarding the whole gender politics thing entirely here. Is there a real need, not just a want, but an actual need to advertise pronouns during a game? It does not change the game in any meaningful way at all.

Again I don’t mean to step on any toes or cause offense. I just am not seeing a need for this. Again, I support the ability for gender and pronouns to be selected on a profile page, but I’m honestly steadfastly against cluttering up the game page. I don’t play on Zen, but, if any more details and things go on, on the page, I’m going to have to start playing on Zen mode, because it’ll be too busy.

I care more about my ability to concerntrait on the game than I do about what someone may call me, or indeed what I call my oponant. Generally, I already try my best to use gender-inclusive language.

I am also more than happy to step back and change my position on this if indeed, there is an actual fundamental need for this to be implamented. At the moment, I don’t see it as something that ticks those proverbial boxes.

6 Likes
28

Couldn’t you just ignore it? Would this really be so distracting:

image

I don’t think your “it’s not necessary” argument works here. There’s also not really a fundamental need for profile pictures, user names, analysis mode, chat, etc. Zen mode is exactly for that: the mode without the stuff that isn’t fundamentally needed to play the game.

12 Likes
29

I guess I am prepared to concede that point. I would personally prefer no addition of text at all, but in terms of the necessity argument, there is no logical way I can debate against that kind of reasoning. And my personal preferences alone should not dictate whether or not something is indeed necessary or not.

Though I would propose that the text be limited to a certain number of characters, no more than ten or fifteen, as I don’t see pronouns needing any more than that. Though I will say, that if indeed it is a free text field, that it would likely be used for many other things other than its intended purpose. ((Which isn’t a bad thing)).

I may also even grow to appreciate the field. I think in my head, id worked it out to be more invasive than that.

Also, another suggestion would be some kind of way to prevent it from appearing as bright colors (That are different from the rest of the text. For example, a mod has purple, I’d rather not see luminous green in with that, as that would be a distraction), and I’d also suggest that there be a thing put in place to avoid animated text also.

((True to my word, I am always prepared to step back from an argument if proven wrong.))

6 Likes
31

to be fair, putting it a prewritten greeting is a bit awkward… because it looks like you’re saying “Hi, I’m a [insert gender pronoun here]”, like, it’s not a huge problem in ice breakers, but when the conversation starts with that – it seems weird.

Putting it in the spot of useless information about you like your rating and ratings deviation makes sense

9 Likes
32

What I do like, perhaps straying away from the intended use, is just a small text field where you can say whatever, like we have here on the forum. It can be used for plenty of things, such as just stating your name, making a joke, giving your pronouns, etc.

6 Likes
33

Maybe not too many people will agree on that one, but yes, it is indeed too distracting, given that it is not necessary information. (It’s like having your company logo on every single slide of a presentation - not very intrusive, and somehow with a purpose…but actually it’s just another element your audience has to waste their limited focus on)

The Profile pictures are also not really necessary, but at least I can use them to quickly identify someone without memorizing every name, as they are generally quite unique.

This feature would only serve the minority of another minority, if I understand correctly: The subset of all the people who care that their pronoun is used correctly, which end up in a situation where people use their pronoun while they cannot correct it (e.g Streams and what-not)…

Why not just use another text field under the rarely used “Real Name” field on the profile? (While fixing the “Hide” function, while one is at it :D) Or directly use the Real Name textbox for that information

1 Like
34

I understand the relevance of this if one considers a game as a social experience.
An unintended consequence of a declaration of a preference is that certain types of people will find it attractive to use the opposite of the preference to unsettle an opponent and gain an advantage during the game.
Personally I prefer just the rank - the only thing relevant to the game and independent of the originator’s preferences - I do not chat.
Regards, Ed

1 Like
35

I feel that such a response, if not an honest mistake, would be violating OGS game chat policies, so I don’t think that would be much of a problem, though mods feel free to correct me.

4 Likes
36

I think it would be neat to have something like this as an optional thing, preferably in form of a free text field.

This sounds totally fine, even for people who don’t want to use this feature. I honestly can’t see why anybody would be against it.

Although… :smiling_imp: Let’s have a poll (it will be invisible who voted for which option):

  • I don’t like this idea, and I identify as male
  • I don’t like this feature, and I identify as some other gender
  • I like this feature, and I identify as male
  • I like this feature, and I identify as some other gender
  • I don’t care, and I identify as male
  • I don’t care, and I identify as some other gender
0 voters
1 Like
37

The poll is flawed, my choice isn’t even present

9 Likes
38

Yes, it’s a simplification, and it’s not very serious either.
The poll is not really about if we should have the feature or not, but I thought I’d like to find out if the people who oppose this idea in general are mostly male - and being male means that they are almost always referred to with the correct pronouns by default and get rarely misgendered.
However, I guess this poll won’t really help to support or disprove my hypothesis, because afaik the majority of Go players is male, and so the majority of people filling out this poll will most likely be male.

40

I don’t feel strongly about the decision made. If I have any strength of feeling it is probably that “cleaner and more minimalist is better”, but that’s because I have a personal preference for minimalism generally. Info on the card should be, IMO, go related - username, rank, rating, site supporter status … hard for me to find much more information that I would consider relevant. Info on the profile can contain literally anything that people want to write about themselves as far as I’m concerned.

If people are streaming / reviewing my game, it’s cleanest to refer to me as topazg (or topaz, which is for one thing easier to pronounce), or the colour stone I am in the game. If people wish to use a pronoun, they can use whatever they like. It might amuse me if they use one I haven’t heard before or use one that is rarely used for me, but it wouldn’t bother me.

FWIW regarding your poll, I somewhat dislike “I don’t care” as that implies more apathy than “I don’t mind”, which is more accurately my feelings on the request, and I don’t identify with any gender, which you had excluded from your poll.

7 Likes
41

I actually think this raises a good point in terms of the kind of information we want on OGS, and what OGS will become as a result of saturation of personal information.

The more personal information on OGS, the more social it becomes. The more social that OGS becomes, the more it becomes a social network. Now, some people may like the idea of a social network come Go-playing server, but I don’t.

I log in to the forums to be a social member of the GO community… As such, it has much more information about who I am, on my profile, (Except the about me part is filled with a riddle, that I’d forgotten about)

I guess my point can be boiled down into this. OGS is for playing go. The forums, are the social experience. Thus, it matters more that you or any other person be able to advertise gender/ pronouns, on the forums, than on the OGS game site.

I’m not really fully opposed to the idea of the text field, especially because I saw how it could look, and it wasn’t nearly as bad as I thought it may have been. But, in terms of misgendering in chat, would it simply not be easier to ask the person you are talking to, to refer to you in the gender or with the pronouns that you prefer?

I know I speak from a position of never really being misgendered, (Well there was this one time, that I was mistaken for a woman from behind because I have long hair, but that is neither here nor there) and I recognize that is a privilege. But, at the same time, is it so much of an issue if people are willing to comply online with the gender of your choice? and if not, then there is the option of either no responding to the chat, or if it becomes abusive, then calling a moderator is to make sure that the issue is dealt with properly.

I would also have to agree with what S_Alexander said when he stated:

To me, in total summary, I’m not against the free text field, so long as it’s not invasive. But in terms of the gender issue, I don’t think its a problem at all. And even if these changes were to be made, there is no guarantee that the free text field is going to be used as a means to advertise pronouns, and thus, therein lies the crux of the matter, that misgendering people would still be a very probable reality thereafter.

3 Likes
42

There are also people who identify as agender.

More concisely, sex is what your body has and gender is what your brain has. For most people they are the same, but for gender dysphoric individuals they differ (probably because of a genticmutation)

2 Likes