frustration in go for a newbie

Thanks @tonybe that’s a great explanation. Very thorough.

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Great write up. We should get this pinned or bookmarked in something like a wiki for other newcomers who will (eventually) have similar frustrations.

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I’d like to add my two cents of wisdom. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

Go rules are very simple but stones placement may lead to very complicated situations. You can’t just learn that by reading a book or watching some videos.

The best way, in my opinion, is to have the opportunity to go back and forth in your games, experiencing losing stones, then rolling it back a few moves and trying to save them with some other move.
No human player can give you that. Bots on OGS sometimes allow undo, but it’s boring.
The best way is to play against an app that allows multiple undo.

I have one on my smartphone. It’s called simply “go” so it’s not very easy to find on the app store. The developer is called “AI factory”.
In my beginning as go player, I had a lot of fun and enlightenment playing on that app, just because I had the opportunity to roll back and try something different. I definitely suggest that to any new player.

Have fun! :heart:

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I completely agree with this

If you have an android phone, this app uses a version of the GnuGo AI, and I find it is a very good learning tool

https://godroid.en.softonic.com/android

For a 20-25 kyu player, playing with a beginner has the benefit that you’re both mostly lost, and trying to find your feet. So, you’ll find yourself capturing their stones, or having your groups narrowly avoid getting captured because of their mistakes.

However, that has a pitfall hidden inside it - we begin to hope that our opponent will keep making those same mistakes, and as we rank up, we run into people who have figured out how to capture our stones, or avoid those mistakes we were waiting to save us.

When I was struggling to rank up from 22-18kyu I referred to this tendency of mine as “Wish Go” - I kept reading 3-4 moves ahead, and hoping my opponent would do what I predicted they would do, and they always found some moves I hadn’t thought of yet.

So yeah, in some ways, it’s a real benefit to have a low-ranked AI that has a very passive style, but still never makes mistakes in things like shape, stages of the game, keeping track of liberties, etc. Playing against such an opponent helps us figure out what is possible and what is impossible within the game, without the illusory hope that someone else’s blunders will allow us to get away with it this time.

And yes, the ability to ask for infinite UN-DOs and try different things is a HUGE part of learning. Highly recommended.

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Totally agree! That was actually the first app I downloaded to play on (Go - AI factory) and the roll back and estimated score really help to get a feel for what works and what doesn’t. However I’d say this is for real newbies to understand and practice basic concepts and that you should transition to playing against humans as soon as possible.

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@tonybe Wow. I need to come back and read through your post again… so rich with content. Thanks for taking the time and considerable effort to craft this post!

As @Lys says, the “Go” app (or “Pro” version without ads) is a great learning tool works just as described, i.e., with the back and forth play option to check out alternatives. Have been using it for years.

However, if you’re on Android, then most recently I’ve discovered BadukAI - which is totally free and amazingly awesome. It’s right there in the Google Play store.

It brings all the latest AI goodness right to your phone or tablet - frankly, it’s every bit as powerful as anything on Windows, Mac or Linux platform and just as full featured. You can even download and deploy any number of the latest AI models from the web and tune them to your competitive level. Loads/saves sgf files, live or retrospective AI analysis, etc. I’d pay $$$ (yes, it’s ad-free) if the developer would accept money - but he doesn’t. :+1:

Happy hunting and enjoy! :vulcan_salute:

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You bet - it means a lot to me that my writing can actually help people trying to wrap their minds around the game

If you feel like reading a LOT more on the topic, I’ve had these 19x19 FOR BEGINNERS articles up on the forum for a while

All in all, it’s probably somewhere around 200+ pages of content (it’s hard to count, because so much of the space is taken up by images)

Introduction: Making Sense of Go

Part 1: Sente and Gote

Part 2: Settling Your Stones

Part 3: Playing a Balanced Opening

Part 4: Joseki Basics

Part 5: The Stages of the Game

Part 6: Shape

Take your time, please make sure to play through all of the included demo games, and enjoy

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@tonybe Legend

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We need some kind of teaching tools that utilize the interface like the Conquest of Go, with some kind of high-level 4x strategy games. I like the idea that the two sides will have to farm their lands afterward, where the game itself are merely the stage where the boundaries are set.

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make sure you do 5 puzzles a day. its like a vitamin to keep you healthy

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that is the best piece of info on go i have read so far – it explains a lot of concepts for me i didn’t understand i really appreciate the time taken to write that piece i have read it twice now and got two strong concepts to follow so iam sure i will do better again thanks

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