I find it a very strict ruling at this age. However, if I can name a child who wins, I think I can also name a child that cheats.
I agree cheating on tournaments is much less serious than other crimes children commit every day, but the defense used by parents and lawyers is always the same “the child didn’t know better”. In my opinion, this gives children an excuse to commit unpardonnable actions and feel secure while doing it.
There are countless children who don’t commit crimes and offenses. I’d rather honour their critical thinking than “protect” a wrongdoer by providing the same opportunities.
Cheating is a new problem in our go world and we will see in the near future more cases policies and decisions against individuals.
This one is the severest i encounter yet. Much more severe as decisions taken by pro federations. Besides it’s obscure and not well documented.
I hope it was easy to take like no doubt on the cheating facts, i am curious what will happen when this become like a jurisprudence and be applied to more doubtful cases.
It depends. There are children who genuinely “don’t know better”, because they lack certain executive functioning skills.
There are many different lagging skills a child could be dealing with, so to say that “all children know better” is provably wrong. There’s sufficient enough evidence to reject that statement.
To add to this, being good at go doesn’t mean a child is capable of higher thinking or understanding social consequences. There are many kids who are exceptionally gifted at one thing and are well behind their age group for just about everything else. I’m being quite general in my statements, but I don’t want to write several pages on special education and challenging behaviours at 2 am.
I’d be more than happy to start a new thread to talk about it over a longer time span though.
Agreed, and the responsibility falls to the guardian in a very explicit way.
However, I insist on taking the average child as an example, because from my understanding there were no specific rules for the tournament. Also, we do make a distinction among criminals with specific conditions (eg mental) but we do not apply the logic to all criminals. We use the average case.
What I wanted to stress is that being a child is not a forgiveness passport. Lots of innocent children are suffering because of “untouchable” talented children. (I’m sorry if I’m deviating from the topic, I’m happy to discuss it elsewhere)
This 1 year ban was heavily objected to by Yeonwoo and Cho Hyeyeon. They talked about it on their videos/streams, saying that it should have been longer and that Korean Go Association didn’t wanna “cut the goose that lays the golden eggs”(Yeonwoo’s words not mine - https://youtu.be/EVHWoZ98PTU?t=509). One of their arguments was that 1 year is basically a vacation and not a ban, considering that go events are not that frequent. We should note that a 1 year ban here might not be the same as a 1 year ban in Korea, in that a ban in western countries leads you to miss fewer events per year. It is also worthy to note that the Korean pro cheating case which resulted in a one year ban was a “pro” cheating case not an amateur. The way they handled the amateur cheating case was different. https://youtu.be/EVHWoZ98PTU?t=551. Prison! That’s right!
This sounds fair. Ideally, a good way of reinforcing the idea that kids should get blamed less for these offences would be to have a money fine for the parents. In case of cheating in youth categories, half of the ban can be turned into a money fine or community service related to go (like, the kid offering public lectures on behalf of that go federation). However, I’d be worried that money fines would just result in bribery and would hurt the system in practice more than it helps.
Sorry for having a foul mind, but I wonder if this person is a student of Alexander Dinerchtein and/or Ilya (as many russian up-and-comers are) and if their objections involve any personal reasons. To me, that would reflect quite poorly on them as well. Can you elaborate on how much consensus there was regarding the ban being too harsh (was Guzel Surma the only strong player to agree with the decision?) because after seeing Yeonwoo’s and Cho Hyeyeon’s reactions to the korean case, Im surprised that these 2 would join “many people” in saying the ban was too harsh. AI use is rarely tolerated in high levels, even if done by a kid. Perhaps their objections are about an inconsistency in the decisions. If other kids were punished much less for the same offence, it would make sense that many would object to this.
A blind eye is definitely turned regarding this. I saw countless games linked.on chat or even on forums, talking about opponents’ cheating or bad behaviour. Sorry to say, it mostly depends on which of the moderators sees the naming&shaming and who is doing it.
Perhaps they should. Fox does this. Transparency is good, prevents abuse of power. In the future, when there is an unfair punishment, these public discussions that get called “naming and shaming” now, can lead to correcting a wrong decision. If you can’t discuss these publicly, how will people know when there are wrong decisions being made over and over? Wouldn’t a wrongly accused party be happy when their case gets discussed publicly? Shouldn’t we arrange these procedures/ethics so that wrongly accused people benefit from it and not the cheaters and/or organizers that make poor decisions?
I still think It’s a harsch punishment 4years out of tournaments considering he’s twelve years old.
That’s just killing any go dreams for him.
You can argue about how to punish but the fact is that in western countries at least, justice for children is much more indulgent and specific which was the reverse here compared to the pros adults.
Then if i am a parent how will i react to harsh punishment which could hurt my child? Go play something else of course. Even more if i don’t care on go myself too much.
Asking parents for contribution. … Why not asking the education system then? Cheating activity is surely something difficult to detect by the people in charge. I will blame more the surrounding culture as the ppl in charge.
I won’t blame any teacher defending his student (if this is the case btw), I would even expect it if he see this as a lost opportunity for this child.
This is going a bit too far, you insinuate personal interests of people that you even don’t know if they are his teacher! Then you have to prove that these players act according to their personal interests. I would feel insulted myself.
On the last point on OGS policies. OGS is not a go Federation and don’t run in the same way. A go Federation has to give accounts to its members. OGS wants to manage bad behaviors on its own, asking help only by reporting them and trusting the moderators in their job. Till now i don’t have myself to complain on wrong behaviors from that moderators team.
Indeed. I have done bad stuff when I was a child and a teenager that I’m ashamed of as an adult, like (trying to) cheat in board games when playing with my brother, picking fights with my brother, purposefully breaking stuff, bullying and general irresponsible behaviour. It’s not that I didn’t know I was being bad at those instances, but I think my capability of empathy, self-reflection and awareness of consequences was just weaker when I was a child/juvenile.
I waited for snakes to chime in, even thought of dropping a pm.
As far as I can google, no. Not definitive, but. I think it’s similar to Korean case. They don’t want to lose a talented player for Russia.
Generally it seems “too harsh” is the consensus in the discussions but it’s mostly regular people, maybe only those three are actually strong important people.
In the poll people voted:
One year - 29
Two years - 23
Three plus years - 12
Permanent - 4
“Hey, let’s not do this” - jokish “other/watch results” option - 22
It’s an internet poll, so it doesn’t say much. But from those who I heard about and hope it’s not someone impersonating them. One year option was chosen among others by Fyodorov 2d, Chernyh 6d, M.Kaymin, Rahmat 4d (the one that won), Shikshin, N.Shalneva, so a strong team. Don’t know anyone in two years category. Kalsberg 3d, Gorzhaltsan (vice presindent), Podolyak (from anti-cheating comission), V.Kaymin for three plus years. Permanent - Fionin 6d. Strongest team is in the joke category but it’s pointless. Anyway.
Perhaps it is felt that the lesser bans, ie 1 year, have not proved a deterrent so they are unloading on this player. I doubt it will prove to be much of a deterrent. People, some people, seem to need to cheat,