What does AGA mean for EGF today??
The delta might easily be due to more players playing out long AI josekis though, but simply playing out more AI josekis doesnāt really make you a much stronger go player. Or it could be due to more players choosing to play peacefully which will also lead to higher accuracy.
Like, I agree that 1d now is like tougher than 1d OGS 4 years ago. But just looking at AI accuracy by itself doesnāt paint the whole picture.
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Not to be too contrarian, but I think the fact that Fox is 3-5 stones weaker than any sane ranking scheme shows that OGS ranks being 1 stone stronger than AGA/EGF is no big deal. It doesnāt make sense to have the OGS system (which is intended to mathematically predict who will win the games they play on OGS) pegged to the AGA system (which is intended to do the same for AGA tournament games) or to the EGF system (ditto, for the EGF tournament system). Inevitably if players perform differently online versus in tournaments, these systems will not give the same players the same rankings, so any kind of static/perpetual āpegā is impossible.
Furthermore, as we were discussing in chat a week or so ago, there is some argument that EGF 7d amateurs are 4+ stones weaker than East Asian pros. I donāt think the evidence of this is incontrovertible, but if the intention is to have a rating system where the best human players consistently maintain a 9d rank (I think thatās 2800 rating and above, in OGS terms), then there is much stronger argument that EGF and AGA should deflate to match OGS than that OGS should inflate to match EGF/AGA.
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Perfectly normal usage, as far as I am concerned, but admittedly confusing to those unfamiliar with it. Read it as āpeople suppose thatā, and the sense of āsupposeā as āthinkā becomes clearer.
I agree, after some thought I donāt mind OGS ranks staying the exact same. Iāve seen some cases lately of playersā ranks matching their EGF ranks. Maybe deflation is being reversed slowly as more dan players have started to play on OGS recently. There are also plenty of 6 dans and a 7 dan who plays semi-regularly. 9 dan OGS can be a rank that requires close to high-tier professional level play to achieve, just as 10 dan on Fox is elusive to all but the likes of Shin Jinseo and his peers. As long as OGS continues to grow, people can learn to value our ranks more than Fox ranks.
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Multiple aspects here:
- How should the ranking system be?
- How is it actually?
- Where is it heading?
Even if weād agree the current ranks are okay, it still leaves the question of how to make it stay that way.
Manual tweaking every once in a while doesnāt seem quite satisfying to me.
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A lot of the discussion here assumes that the populations of the servers are essentially the same in style and therefore the ranks should be comparable. I believe that is a false assumption. I have heard that Fox players are very aggressive and often overplay in comparison to OGS. That alone may account for the difference. Wishing that ranks every everywhere had the same meaning may be a nice go utopia, but we are living on planet Earth.
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Fox games at kyu level may look very strange, people donāt know joseki and make constant overplays, but games around 3d level or higher feel normal, good play is good play.
Anyway Fox ranks are irrelevant, we donāt want OGS ranks to align with Fox. It makes sense to align them with AGA and EGF since OGS is a āWesternā server, so that people who only played online before know at which rank to register when the participate in a real-life tournament. The correspondence canāt be perfect, since online play and tournament play are different, it would be like comparing 10000m races with 1500m races, but performances in both kinds of races are still correlated.
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Fox and wbaduk ranks can be like ~6 stones from egf or aga ranks, but i guess those tend to align more with chinese and korean ranks?
IIRC the idea with the current aligment was, that there was roughly about 1.5 stone difference between egf and aga ranks, and ogs should sit in the middle of that. So that the 1d ogs would be comparable to ~1k egf and ~2d aga.
I can feel a small drift on my own rank: in 2021ā23 my ogs rank was bit higher than my egf 3k rank, but since 2024 iāve actually struggled to upkeep myself as 3k and iāve often dropped to 4k even >___>
But yeah, i guess lot more data needs to be analysed before any big re-aligment?
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I donāt see why the reasons for e.g. Fox 1 dans being weaker than OGS 2 kyus matter here. Both rating systems measure win percentage, why would certain types of weaknesses be relevant to compare the two systems?
Within each system there are also players with different styles and the systems donāt care about that much.
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2 posts were split to a new topic: Reporting user
It would specifically help with deflation, at least. On a somewhat related note, on KGS, players who had suspicious game histories had a tilde (~) attached to their ranks which everyone could see next to their names when accepting games against them. On KGS players also had the option to choose between multiple applicants/challengers for their custom games. This might not be necessary on OGS, but it can be a powerful barrier if no other solutions are found.
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No itās players who prefer to play stronger players. Not suspicious games.
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True, I never fully understood what it meant. I was thinking it can be suspicious in the way that some sandbaggers tend to mostly or only play vs. stronger players, but there can be normal players who simply prefer to play vs. stronger players too.
Iām also suggesting it can be used for suspicious game histories like the one in the screenshot I replied to. It would be even more useful than what KGS used it for.
I appreciate that people clever-er than me put in much effort to make OGS what it is, including the rating system - which Iām certain is very technical behind the scenes. I also suspect that many people have a tendency to blame the rating system for their inability to progress. Iām not doing that - my problem is lapses of focus at critical moves.
I also realize this thread is primarily regarding dan levels, but I donāt want to start a new thread. All of that said, I just want to post screenshots of some of some of my recent opponents. The trend seems to show for several mid-SDK, a downward trend beginning mid-2024 or 2025.
Perhaps itās cherry picking, and of course there can be many reasons. If I could, Iād query in bulk. Take say 100 not-new-mid-to-weak-SDK account ranks as they were about 3rd quarter 2024, calculate the average rank at that time then repeat for the same accounts present day. Iād expect that the average rank would at least stay constant rather than decline.
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What is the claim that there is a problem with the siteās ranking or are people taking advantage of the low rankings?
Iām not making any claim, just offering an observation.
I understand that if the tide goes out all the boats drop. It just seems strange to me that there appears to be a general downward trend instead of people improving mean rank over time.
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