Of course, whether something or not someone’s respectful is always subjective. A lot of it is just the tone he describes his opponents moves and the way he insinuates how he can beat his opponents despite not trying very hard.
It’s like at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5WWLjL4iCo&t=420s, the tone he’s using and all the extra words like “bruh, that’s a problem” feels more like he’s boasting about his position rather than trying to make it educational.
But again, it’s all subjective. Possibly people feel it’s all fine.
That game was unranked, so that’s fine as fine as far as I’m concerned (sandbagging is allowed on OGS in unranked games, whether you are a streamer or not).
Some of this is just lack of player consistency. The fewer players playing at a rank and the chances of that rank correctly matching skill level drops.
The more data the elo calculator has the better it gets.
I also dont think the streamers are in the same category. It is highly useful to see games at your level where simple responses are given, it is a huge help to improving the game.
I wonder how many non stremers actually sandbag though. For me i either am winning easily or getting smashed to the ground.there seems to me no happy medium but i dont think the smashers are sandbagging or ai ing.
Yeah, I know. I just don’t care enough to go through Dwyrin’s streams of ranked sandbagging games to find examples since I don’t watch or support such content myself. I just pulled an example from one I did see to show that I don’t think it’s simply “respectful, educational streams”
I historically (haven’t watched any for a year or two) haven’t liked Dwyrin’s attitude, so shinuito’s comments about the OGS policy allowing sandbagging for educational content if done respectfully had me hopeful it had improved. But on checking that video I was disappointed. There’s the constant feeling his opponent could never be doing anything good beyond his own ideas. Or the complacency of “what’s the best way to live here?” assuming he can, rather than “can I live here?”, and then dying in gote was funny. But I thought I detected in his expression that he did actually start to realise things were bad for him a little earlier, but his ego when sandbagging won’t let him say it.
lmao, that’s exactly what I thought the way he described every move.
Feels like he lost due to being overly complacent about his position rather than AI usage. Would feel really bad for his opponent if that’s the game that got his opponent banned since all moves looks pretty human and at the SDK level. I see no ingenious moves in that game.
For what it’s worth, I remember watch some of Inseong’s videos a while back and think that’s more of an example of someone trying to be respectful and educational.
I just don’t think dwyrin is this respectful educational streamer all the mods are making him out to be.
I believe my earlier suggestion is the better option because it is simpler:
All it takes is one simple PM to dwyrin, and then 30 seconds to annul a self-reported game. He doesn’t even play on OGS every day, and as someone else noted, many of his games are already unranked. I suspect he goes to ranked when he gets frustrated waiting for an unranked game.
Yes, there multiple factors involved for sure. My point still stands, however.
Obviously, one shouldn’t expect tarring and feathering to consider a stream problematic. We are talking here about humiliation as a feeling, not as a physical thing. Unfortunately, that can be a matter of subjective interpretation. However, when you consistently hear things in stream like “I am gonna killing him!!”, “He is dead!!”, “I am just gonna keep poking him (are you poking a bear in a circus?)” all while treating the whole thing like a pack wolves going for a hunt. “We”. I have stopped watching those kind of streams a long time ago, because they were painful to watch, frankly.
I would say that Mr. Inseong Hwang’s content does look reasonably informative. However, that does not resolve the question of consent. People set a rank restriction for a reason. And we are also forgetting the fact that not all players online are looking for improving their games; quite a lot of people just want to play a competitive/exciting game at their level after a stressful day, not play a game that they were completely hopeless in with no chance of challenging their opponent.
It’s not black and white. I have learned quite a few things from dwyrin’s basics series for instance, since I started playing Go. However, there are objective moral questions that need to resolved.
Time for my favorite OGS tradition: the policy poll.
Ideally, policy would be supported with facts, but with this topic of streamers playing against lower ranks, there are some big unknowns: the promotional value for Go is unknown, the knock-on effect on other cheaters is unknown, and the total number of these games is small relative to OGS overall. So just based on your opinion: where should the line be?
1 - Allow everything, including obvious noobstomping
2 - Allow only teaching-style games that stay reasonably fair
3 - Allow only with clear educational intent and high-quality lesson content
4 - Allow only for established and approved streamers / community educators
5 - Allow only with prior consent from the opponent
6 - Allow only in unranked/custom games
7 - Allow nothing at all
0voters
Multiple options are possible.
(Typically, the first post below this will point out the most obvious poll entry that I missed. Apologies in advance )
Ok, I came back for a small amount of additional “pollution” because of your poll. Just some points.
Allow only with clear educational intent and high-quality lesson content
I think you should use the term “ban” instead of “allow” because currently all these things are already allowed according to the written rules of OGS.
You keep omitting the subject that you are actually addressing. Allow what exactly? Are we talking about:
Playing on multiple accounts at all?
Playing on multiple accounts and purposefully choosing the wrong rank? This point also includes that a definition is needed for what “choosing the wrong rank” exactly means and if there is a maximum frequency for this. If a 13k player has to choose between 12k and 25k, is he allowed to choose 25k? If so, is he allowed to do that daily?
Losing games intentionally?
Moreover, it’s relevant what the accompanying measures will be. IF you e.g. allow content creators to play on low ranked accounts. Will that mean that the account will then be clearly labeled and the ranking points lost by other players will be returned? OR will they just have to live with the situation without such measures.
The “written rules of OGS” are not so written down in a rules document specifically, but they are a collective guidance that mods and admins post on these forums over the years.
Yes, that makes it difficult to find out what is allowed or not, but no, clear noobstomping is most definitely not allowed.
I’m neither a full mod or an admin to make that clear.
Valid concern. I was responding to the latest subject, which is “streamers playing against lower ranks”. I had added that subject, then ctrl+z’d a couple of times to fix a mistake, and didn’t see the topic had gone. I just edited that back in.
Sure that’s relevant, but not before there’s some concensus on what is acceptable behavior in the first place. Again, I’m not a mod or an admin, just a OGS user trying to see where the opinions are at.
There’s a side issue which might not impact some voters but OGS gets promotion from some of the more successful streamers doing this.
Make them all switch to Fox and some games will follow. I doubt that would impact many peoples decisions but ‘ban’ and you could get the server some people want with even less players. Law of unintended consequence applies as ever.
Yes. I think you have a good point here. Althought I see it the same way as many here, that this streamer education whatever thing is sandbagging and not very nice for the affected people and not very fair, it feels a weird to me making a rule for these few streamers (Actually Im not aware of anyone besides Drywin that does that on regular basis on OGS). Because they are a tiny fraction of the sandbagging problem and they get restricted while they at least educate. Its making a rule for 1-3 (?) people while the big problem of this thread remains.
I say this as someone who enjoys dwyrin’s content, but his sandbagging should not be allowed in my opinion.
He could just create a lobby on his main account and restrict the ranks to be much lower than his own rank, no handicap. That way, everyone knows what they’re getting into.
But he doesn’t. Why not? Presumably because finding a game takes too long then. Well, why does it take so long? Because the people he’s targeting apparently don’t want that. They are looking for a game against someone of their own level.
So why are we allowing him to trick them into playing against him anyway?
I’ve played a few games with ngenvi, he is very chill and playing the game to learn and have fun, I highly doubt he was cheating. Being ranked a little higher I might have a strategic edge over him overall but he can play very strong with tactics locally.
It is very poor sportsmanship for dwyrin to jump right to such a serious accusation, simply because he’s feeling the sting of a loss. He absolutely should have congratulated ngenvi for his win and then perhaps done his AI investigation offscreen later. Iakgnoh is right, how he reacted is outrageous and childish. Dwyrin was overconfident and didn’t believe that a mere 9kyu could beat him, so even when he saw what was happening he played too fast and made mistakes. David and Goliath moment.
I don’t see any evidence of this, are you sure you’re looking at the right player?
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