Learning Chinese or Japanese for go

The classical Chinese language did abound with honorifics and polite language. Indeed, I believe the polite language seen in Japanese and Korean is directly related to the extensive and mutual historical influence between those and Chinese culture.

However, in recent times, the use of such language in the PRC has been greatly dimished since the end of the imperial era in an intentional revolution/eradication of language.

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Korean-and-Japanese-have-honorifics-but-Mandarin-Chinese-does-not

Honorifics in China, Japan and Korea - Bilingua

So, in short, blame the communists :man_shrugging:t2:

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I won’t blame people who like to use honorifics and i won’t blame the ones who don’t.

For me chinese is already enough difficult, especially when studying writing, to be quite satisfied by the simplification made some decades ago.

I am curious how @Jendker has experienced his attempt in learning a go-relevant language. Was it difficult, did it help to improve your go, etc?
Can/will you tell us about this?

Edit:

This stats can mean two things: dropped out of go/OGS or spent all time in studying a language.

Just because it’s something I didn’t think of before, in terms or purchasing digital versions of non-English go books outside of the Nihon Ki-in app, it might be worth mentioning for people who can read or who are learning Japanese that there are these things available.

This looks like a book by Ichiriki Ryo on the direct 3-3 invasions

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dairekutosansan-kihontoouyou-Japanese-Ichiriki-Ryo-ebook/dp/B095SD3W1S/

and another book on Fuseki revolution by Shibano Toramaru

https://www.amazon.co.uk/fusekikakumei-Japanese-Nihon-Ki-ebook/dp/B097B1DKNP/

I think either searching for player names or associations could be one way to find books, another to search for Japanese or Chinese name of Go.

I guess there’s more books than I expected digitally through Amazon.

Interesting, also another place I can imagine would’ve been hard to find.

Quite nicely they also have English instructions

https://book.mynavi.jp/purchase_en/

Lately I’ve been vaguely thinking of getting into an Oriental language, looking at a few little videos and so on.

Like many (ex-) anime / manga consumers, I’ve had the usual phase(s) of grinding kanji on Anki, downloading manga raws and all that, but it never came to anything. I’m not sure I could motivate myself to go in hard again.

For now I’ll just continue with my kabuki, K-drama, Chinese vlogs and so on…

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Nice video for the very first steps.

Next you may learn like 500 words very specific to weiqi (the ones that chinese on the street won’t understand).

Then it’s another story to read a weiqi book… Just guess how many ways to say good move.

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I posted a comment on the video to ask her if I could make flashcards out of the vocabulary in the video. This was actually my first youtube comment ever. She replied yes and asked me to share the link when I did.

I made the flashcards, they can be found here:
https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/1854489

I tried posting a new youtube comment with the link, but it got automatically deleted. I guess it got marked as spam. And now I can no longer post youtube comments, they all disappear instantly.

If someone knows how to contact her with the link, please do!

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Some more terms in

and recently

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I guess the blog would also be good to link :slight_smile:

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Or the smartgo books or smartgo one apps on iOS/ipad etc

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I noticed Richard Hunter is also doing a tsumego series in the British Go journal. The relevance to this thread is of course that he has written books on learning Japanese while or for studying Go, and in this series he tends to talk about Japanese Go terms a fair bit.

‘Advice for Doing Tsumego’ (14? parts) (Hunter, R.)
Part 1 194: 18–19;
Part 2 195: 18–21;
Part 3 196: 18–21;
Part 4 197: 17–20;
Part 5 198: 28–33*;
Part 6 199: 30– 35;
Part 7 200: 37–42
Part 8 201: 24–29
Part 9 202: 14–20
Part 10 203: 12–18
Part 10 cont’d 203: 24–25
Part 11 204: 5–13
Part 12 205: 6–14
Part 13 206: 12–18
Part 14 207: ? - members only access at the moment

Since you bumped this post: I honestly don’t understand this book, it seems significantly worse than just using a standard textbook like Genki and then just learning Go words as well. (90% of what you need to know is general Japanese anyway)

Not really.

If you just learn a few symbols like 黒、白、正解、失敗、you can already pretty much pick up a puzzle book and start working through it.

I don’t believe Genki is going to help you read a Go book, since I’ve shown some Go books to Japanese people and they’re not even sure what they’re looking at in terms of the text.

There’s a lot kanji that are being used in Go specific ways like 打つ for placing stones rather than hitting something, so it helps to have someone explain little things like that, and the variations you might come across from book to book.

I mean if you want to read some nuance into the sentences like whether Black collapses or is ruined or loses some stones etc then sure why not, but if all you care about is that black made a mistake or lost, you don’t need to learn about describing your family for that. (Though 子 is also used to descibe both groups and stones in Go)

I think there’s a lot of instances where studying a language is enhanced by doing something you enjoy while learning it, whether it’s watching k-dramas while learning korean, anime/manga for japanese, reading novels or listening to music.

It’s a niche, it’s handy having a person that can explain to you some of the most common things that show up in Go books, if you’re a Go player who might want to read them. It makes sense to me.

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All very basic words and kanji that I’d expect any elementary student to learn, and definitely in Genki. But even so, you could also do that with pretty much zero Japanese, but you’d be missing the explanations, and anything that is not a simple life or death puzzle.

I don’t believe Genki is going to help you read a Go book, since I’ve shown some Go books to Japanese people and they’re not even sure what they’re looking at in terms of the text.

This sounds like the equivalent of you saying 上手ですね、日本人より日本人 because you said こんにちは because that’s what Japanese people do. Unless you’re showing them some Edo period Go book, it is not indecipherable gibberish to to even a mildly educated adult. Sure, maybe they don’t know what 一間バサミ is, but that’s no different than terminology in any other sport. Though even はさみ could be understood by its normal meaning.

There’s a lot kanji that are being used in Go specific ways like 打つ for placing stones rather than hitting something, so it helps to have someone explain little things like that, and the variations you might come across from book to book.

I looked at the dictionary, and 打つ has 9 definitions in it, so yea, in the very beginning you only know to “hit”, but it doesn’t take more than a few seconds to learn that it has other meanings. Though the Go definition is more understandable than 芝居を打つ if all you know is the “to hit” meaning. However, Japanese does have specific verbs for a number of things, like how Shogi is 指す, though ironically it also uses 打つ.

I mean if you want to read some nuance into the sentences like whether Black collapses or is ruined or loses some stones etc then sure why not, but if all you care about is that black made a mistake or lost, you don’t need to learn about describing your family for that. (Though 子 is also used to descibe both groups and stones in Go)

I would say if you don’t care about what it says, you need zero Japanese as the pictures will give you enough info. But if you do, 90% of the words used in the book are going to be “regular” Japanese. Sure, you may not need to know some family words, but for instance, a book I have right here on one page talks about 犬の顔、馬の顔、猫の顔 and キリンの顔. All pretty basic words. The words you learn in the beginning are going to be the most common words anyway.

Of course, this only applies to books, videos on Go would still be gibberish.

I think there’s a lot of instances where studying a language is enhanced by doing something you enjoy while learning it

I agree, but that’s why I think it’s better to just learn properly and find some 囲碁辞典 or something like that, because most of the Go terminology you’d need to learn are simply nouns that are not hard to learn.

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I don’t think anyone’s arguing that if time is no object, it’s best to learn Japanese and supplement it with some domain-specific vocabulary, but if all you’re interested in is Go, not Japanese, the cost-benefit may not be there for that

Learning Japanese will give you an additional advantage of being able to read manga :smile:

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I don’t disagree, and it’s a beautiful language for its own sake, I just agree with Shinuito that if all one is interested in is Go, one can approach things much more narrowly to get 90% of the benefit (consider how the Cho Chikun collections work perfectly well without commentary or even an answer key)

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