People becoming more condescending and rude in discussion as they move up in rank?

He’s not 4-5d, he’s fake. And yes I can confirm, he’s also an idiot.

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well, that is interesting to find out.

I guess what it really does come down to is the person basic nature. So becoming arrogant as a result to the amount of knowledge/skill someone acquires is just a reflection of their true self. which is subject to change over time i.e. becoming more humble.

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Arrogance isn’t related to go level, but is related to being an asshole, that’s all…

Nothing can “cause” arrogance to come to a person that wasn’t a stupid jerk in the first place,

and yes you can get strong at go or anything else and still be socially stupid and still be driven by your ego.

It’s sad to realize it when you believed so, but improving at go won’t automatically enhance social skills in you…

Arrogance is a sign of stupidity, and anyone who says “believe me because I’m strong(er than you) and don’t try to understand” is just some poor guy unable to explain what he or her’s talking about ))

My solution:
When you meet someone like that, don’t blame that person for his stupidity or unability to speak his supposed higher mind, (that’ll make you stupid and arrogant too) instead just walk away until you meet someone who’s able to articulate his/her thoughts into words that can be understood!

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:frowning:
I wouldn’t go and group arrogance and someone’s IQ level. There are plenty of brilliant people who are socially adept and still posses an air of arrogance.
The root cause of arrogance is the human ego, the fact of the matter is some people have a better reign on their ego then others do.

I believe every person has moments of arrogance even if it is not outwardly exhibited. This can change depending on the subject matter and the moment in time.

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No, Sir. Some people are always humble and totally beyond reproach.

I believe this is the article with all the evidence supporting the idea that some people are just reliably morally superior to others.

p.s.: The IQ debate is in another thread, rafar only mentioned stupidity. Since IQ is a standardized aggregate score on normed tests and “stupid” is a personal judgement, the two are not to be confused. :stuck_out_tongue:

p.p.s.: added emphasis for intensified hyperbole

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depending on what group of philosophy you agree with then, ofc some people are “morally superior”. but it a result of fine tuning and controlling one’s own ego. :stuck_out_tongue: that being said we all struggle against the “ID”

I agree delusions of grandeur plays a role in peoples arrogance.

Rafar’s use of stupidity is an attack on an arrogant person’s IQ. we can discuss the finite nuances of semantics, but I’m pretty sure you understood my point for what it was.

Intersting answers guys :wink:

@smurph: I’m afraid no human can be always-and-totally anything

@ajwitteborg: you say it better than I do :wink:

the authority/hierarchy/superiority argument is the only argument of those who have none.

The western society/civilization is based on ego/competition/division, and ego-driven people can be found anywhere, maybe more amongst the ones who’re higher in/at anything

It’s disappointing and frustrating that intelligence (here I mean reasoning and logical/productive/obect-based thinking…) isn’t an antidote to ego - I’m afraid it might be the opposite.

To avoid ego domination, you must feel while you think, be sure you’re right to doubt, and you can also eat some fungi :star_struck:

There is perhaps too much focus on how “intelligent” one is anyway. The term is so vague and distributed…what matters practically is how skilled a person is. And in this instance where we are talking about morality, it’s a deep and difficult question why some people are more moral than others, whether a person can become more (or even less) moral through their life experiences, the relation between brain, psyche, and action… we could discuss it for years and not come to any sound answers.The pragmatic fact is that arrogant people exist in the world, and we have to figure out how to coexist with them because they’re not going away.

As far as arrogance in Go is concerned, I don’t understand it. How can you get beaten on nine stones by a high dan player and then be snobbish towards a 12k over some minor point? Or receive an hour-long review and then refuse to explain anything to a weaker player? You’d come to be overwhelmed by the realisation of your own hypocrisy.

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Funny no one did mention that the object of our beloved game is sharing ( even some say Art of sharing).
So besides the human bias to become excessively proud of any superior knowledge you may acquire which is already debated up, if you want to reach a real superior knowledge in go you better digest yourself on the goal of the game itself: sharing.
In my opinion it’s why you can find so many nice clever and humble strong go players. Which doesn’t mean you can’t find these qualities for lower level of play.
May be helpful for some of the stucked players.
I did jump on level the day I realized how I was too much neglecting the quality of my opponents moves instead of admiring them

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To be honest, that sentiment is subjective.

I’d go so far as to say that I’ve never seen it written before that the “object of Go is sharing”.

It’s a noble sentiment, and people who share it obviously will not become rude and condescending as they move up in level.

But other people will not share this object of the game. And I agree with the OP’s observation that some people do become condescending as they become more skilled (the question was have we all experienced this, not “should this happen?”). We should hardly be surprised about that - it’s not a Go thing it’s a People thing.

Fortunately as many or more people start and continue humble and helpful!

That’s interesting but I can’t agree. Go is a sharing game as you need to learn or relearn something about balance, give and take and so on… If you come to kill or to get all, better play chess.

I hadn’t thought about it this way before.

What you say may be true. I don’t think it follows from this that people will necessarily not become rude and condescending as they get better at it. Because we can see that some do :slight_smile:

I wonder how we reconcile these observations?

On the relationship between go and personality: once I had a beginner who’s job was to control of the workers were not late or absent.
At his first tournament we went together, he lost all his games and you know how?

Because he couldn’t manage his time!

Sharing: look at some common bad attitude (even sadly habits already):

Playing something not working because maybe your opponent is stupid. Even if he is stronger and mainly because the bot did teach you this way. Is it sharing? Is it a way to progress?
How many times we have to remember we have to share and ok if I get a few more by my better playing, I will win

This has been a fascinating reed that has taken me little under an hour to complete.

So the question at hand is… do people become arrogant and rude the more they know about go, untill they actually become good go.

You can argue that a person does not really understand the game of go untill they reach around 5 dan, and even then they are realising just how little they know of the game. It would be an easy answer to say that this is the case. Because once you recognjse how little you know the more humble you might becom.

But its also an easy answer to assume a person become arrogant when they think they are better at something that most others are not. Its also easy to just classify a person as an ass because that is who they are as a person. Its even easy to rstionalise a person as an ass because of age, and other circumstantials in their life.

And ti some degree each of the answers are correct at least to a certain degree. I can of course only go off of what i know, which is sparce at best as im not an ‘educated’ person by todays standards.

However what i can add to this is my own experience. I have both been the asshat of condescention and the most noble of humble players… somewhat. I make no claims that im perfect.

I do remember when i tried teaching my friends a few years ago before they lost interest… i must have been around 12k at the time. And i was 23-24 give ir take sux month from each. And at the time i remember teaching them what i knew which was conparitivly nothing to what i know now as an 8kyu (thereabouts). I also remember having a certain level of arrogance… i wasbetter than them, they should listen to me and so on. But i cant say that my arrogance was in any way rude. With the exception of one friend who went out of his way to prove that he game of go was ab utter waste of time and energy… thus making me feel angry and aggresive.

Im also teaching some friends now, and my approach is very different. Sure i say a move is stupid, but much of the time its in how you say it. And tailoring who you are to the people you are around. I know one person i teach woild not react well to me telling her her moves are stupid so i dont say that. The other person i teach i tell him to his face his move is stupid. And he laughes.

But i also always try to guide them in the right direction and explain to them why a move isnt good. Or why the way they are playing isnt wuite correct.

Further to the arrogance and circumstances of that… it must also come down to who you are as a person that day. Speaking as a person with terrible mental health peoblems that have changed me as a person even in the last year… there are days when i’m damn right unplesant to be around. Then there are days that im a delight to be around. Same for online… i rember not to long ago bearly totally loosing my cool on a weaker player sinply because he passed instead of resigne. Because it wasnt proper go ettiquette or whatever. But even in thise bad moods and days i still no matter what im feeling always try to reign myself in, appologise if im coming scross as rude even when i dont mean to be and offer adive to improve their game if they are a weaker player.

Do i think that arrogance comes down puerly to once corcumstantial thing? No.

Its easy as i ssid to assume that is the case. But it isnt correct. There are factors going oj in everyones life that sometimes make being s nice person difficult. Patience for a lack of BS, a bad day, bad upbribging, bad mental health, bad social or economic circumstsnces… and the recerse is also true for each of these things contrary to the other.

Is it just morals? No.

I like to think i have a strong set of morals, combined with my mental hearh and self deprecation and hatred on a regular basis, you’d think it would be hard for me to be arrogant, or the conplete opposit and make go a way of justifying myself, and making myself worth something as a human. But neither is right. I can be arrogant in a good mood and arrigant in a bad mood. I can be humble in a good mood snd a bad mood. And im not silly enough to assume that im the only one who does and feels these things and reacts in simmilar ways.

The answer to this is that really there is no real answer to be taken from this except that everyone has the capasity to be nice and to be a total ass reguardless of circumstance or context or even perception.

Moral of the story here is this: if someone is being an ass, dont get involved with them. If a friend is being an ass, then ask whats up. If you are being an ass, get a hot drink and assess why it is you are being an ass. And if you like being an ass and yoh know you are an ass… get a hot drink and reevealuate yourself because there need to be some thinking done on that one.

And lastly. Go is a game of domination and trade. That isnt to say that you cant make friends. I have a german friend because of this game. I have talked with people from all over the planet, and played hundeds of games with hundreds of different people. Go is more than a game. Its s way of life for many people. Be proud of yourself for your achevements in go. But dont think it makes you a better person.

Always stay humble. Always help… and always ask for help when you need it.

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Sorry for the long post. I get carried away. And i enjoy writing.

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@Lord_o_o_Spoon

No worries, mate :slight_smile: I for one appreciate your view and enjoy reading your texts.

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That makes me feel very appriciated. Thank you very much.

Im also starting ti become heavily involved in this forum of OGS… so no doubt expect some more long posts in the future. XD.

It’s dangerous to post alone. Take this!

FirefoxFirefox Spellchecker
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Thank you very much for the spell checker my dude. I dont know if it workes on my phone though. But yeah… generally as good ss my writing is my spelling is bloody awful. :stuck_out_tongue: