I hope that the Russian government is not so repressive that they would punish a player for not selecting the Russian flag
Nice write up!
Two questions:
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For sake of argument, if a flag did represent a government, do you think it would be acceptable to remove it here on OGS?
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If it doesn’t represent a government, then what does it represent? The physical land boundaries? The citizens? Would you say that a flag is independent of its government?
Here is something from Wikipedia:
A change in national flag is often due to a change of regime, especially following a civil war or revolution. In such cases, the military origins of the national flag and its connection to political ideology (form of government, monarchy vs. republic vs. theocracy, etc.) remains visible. In such cases, national flags acquire the status of a political symbol.
I would say that a flag is not 100% representative of a government, but it’s not 0% either
Ok … I’ll bite.
When you say a flag represents a “country”. What does “country” mean to you?
Physical borders? People?
My opinion: Everyone should be allowed to select a flag they choose, or none.
But, it should also be possible (and easy) for others to see the flag before starting a game with them, and possibly refuse on those grounds.
IMO simply being Russian is nobody’s fault, even if they do nothing positive to oppose their government. (Some will disagree with me about this, including some famous ethicists.) But showing the flag is another matter. Showing the flag is showing assent (and indeed even pride in many cases).
My $0.02.
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Genbeart … I agree with you 100000%! Showing the flag signifies assent and potentially pride!
There is a ton of polling that Putin is popular (and not just based on fear) and that the invasion is popular there. Some of these Russians who like their government play go. I don’t think anyone will disagree with that. These people want to display their flag.
What would be fascinating (and not that hard to do) would for OGS to share what percentage of players have Russian source IP addresses and don’t pick the Russian flag! Those are the Russians I respect~
Just curious. If OGS had a competition here where there was team play scoring and teams were based on their country (world cup of GO), do you think the Russian team should be banned in this scenario?
I am unsure if this is really one of the purposes of the sanctions, or if it is, I believe this won’t work. The odds are against economic sanctions resulting in a change of power in Russia. Historically economic sanctions are usually ineffective (only 35% of cases results partially or completely in the goal of the sanctions becoming reality) and there are several factors that make it unlikely that Russia belongs to the successes. For example, previous sanctions during the Crimean annexation were ineffective, the narrative that the West is the enemy of the Russian people is fuelled by these sanctions, and the generally marginal effects of protests in Russia give little hope that even if protests happen, that they will succeed in a change of power.
The sanctions certainly have an economic effect, but it can just as easily result in resentment towards the West and support of the Russian government fighting it, as it can result in the opposite. Particularly on the topic of “shaming”, the sanctions may actually fuel nationalism.
But I guess this is speculation, and we can only see in the long run how things will develop.
When I still was a moderator, the official position was that the majority of OGS team members supports Ukraine (perhaps even all of them as far as I was aware), but we uniformly agreed that OGS should not force its political stance upon its users. People are free to use OGS to share their opinions, as long as it happens in a passive, non-abusive way, which has been policy not only with the current Russia-Ukraine war, but with other conflicts as well (Hong Kong, to name one, US presidential elections, to name another).
Again, you are confusing the difference between disliking pineapple on pizza and making it forbidden for people to express their fondness of pineapple on pizza. OGS dislikes pineapple, but its users are free to say they like it.
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This scenario probably won’t happen. The usual rule in international competitions is either to ban Russians or to allow them under a neutral banner. But a neutral banner doesn’t make sense in the case of team competitions based on countries. So either ban the Russian team, or allow Russians to play in an “Europe” team.
But maybe putting Russians in an “Europe” team doesn’t make sense either since Russia has been suspended from the EGF.
A flag is a symbol. A national flag represents a country (physical borders and the people living there, I guess), a nation, a nationality or just a language (if the country has a dominant language).
I don’t agree. Selecting the Russian flag in their profile can just mean that Russian is their native language and/or that they are Russian nationals.
It may mean that they are proud of Russia (its people, its history, its culture). It might even mean that they support the Russian military (in general, as patriots). But those things still don’t imply that they agree with Putin’s war, or that they even like Putin.
I selected the Dutch flag in my profile mostly so that people can (roughly) know my geographic location and so that other Dutch go players would know that I’m Dutch, so they can communicate in Dutch with me.
If someone told me it means that I’m proud of my country, or that I like our current government, or that I like that the Netherlands has participated in slave trade in the past, I’d say they’re reading far too much into it.
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I’ve been feeling actively embarrassed about my country the past year, and it actually seems to be getting worse as well, but I indeed wear the Dutch flag just to show my nationality and sincerely hope nobody believes it is there as a symbol representing our government…
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There is nothing to bite at. The definition of a country is totally distinct from its government, because a country is something that has a level of permanence, while a government is by definition transient.
And you trust polls? 
Here - a supposedly not autocratic country - our prime minister goes from blunder to blunder, the inflation is soaring and at some point gas was at 2.5euro per litre and the polls said that the government’s numbers actually went up 
Surely anyone against polarization should not parrot the idea that a flag that acknowledges the existence of a full 5% or so of the human population is “polarizing.”
As for the warmongering nation, it seems there is no easy option to implement a suitable disgrace.
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a country is totally distinct from its government, because a country is something that has a level of permanence, while a government is by definition transient.
It is distinct, but not totally distinct. Two reasons at least:
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While you may not agree with your government policy and actions, the government does its best to minimize the number of people like you, and to claim it acts in the name and in the interest of a great majority – in other words, the government (in my country as well) does its best to conflate the two.
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The government is formally transient, at least in countries that hold elections, which includes Russia. But in many countries, again including Russia and sadly also including my country, the constitutional order is such that important policies never change, because other opinions are blocked subtly or less subtly.
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Perhaps OGS can display the Russian flag backwards. If we flip the flag horizontally, it is sure to infuriate the Russians and make them see the error of their ways.
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Ironically Russian flag was sometimes waved as opposition symbol. And people chanted “Russia will be free”. Maybe you should bar some more pro-government symbol. Like this flag.
Anyway, this is just a silly virtue signaling that would change nothing. Like, oh we can’t do anything actually useful but wouldn’t want to appear inactive so let’s just do something, common policy in covid days. And even if it did it just proves the government’s point that the West hates Russian people. And those opposition-minded people who wanted to be more with West are really stupid. Because, look, they hate you, they don’t want anything to do with you, you aren’t gonna find any help from them. And now that the West is obvious about it, everyone should understand that we need to consolidate around current government and push back against imperial West who just doesn’t to lose their world-dominating position that allows them to exploit and ruin poorer countries.
Funnily some of these kind of dumb anti-Russian restrictions target pro-Western people more than pro-government people. You know, like people fleeing the country. It reminds of Crimean situation. When the sanctions were levied at Crimean people specifically who by the Western logic were the victims of aggression. It’s like putting a wife in jail for getting beat up by the husband so the husband feels bad.
It’s a pro-Ukrainian statement.
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I have not played on ogs often, but I have not experienced any russians waving their flags in my face. You are the only one. Looks like you are not even russian, sadly.
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Propagandists would tell lies like that. The west admires opposition-minded people (like Nawalny). But not doing something, because propagandists might twist it around and tell more lies, is a mistake. Propagandists tell lies no matter what, if you don’t give them something to lie about, they will just make something up.
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The ban on the demonstration of the Russian flag will not cancel either Russia or the Russians, nothing. This is an empty and meaningless act. In addition, one should keep in mind the statistics, which says that Russia accounts for the largest number of players (not counting, of course, Asian countries). The ban on displaying the flag may provoke an outflow of Russian players from the OGS, which, in turn, will have a negative impact on site traffic.
Personally, I use the flag to communicate with players in my language, and I have no idea how you can “waving” the picture on the screen.
Finally, two words to the Ukrainian players. Having a Russian flag on Russian players allows you to avoid playing with Russian players and saves you from having to swear and curse at them, allowing you to focus on what we are all here for. The absence of a Russian flag will lead to a situation where you play with Russian player - and not even know about it, or, even worse, find out about it when it’s too late to change it. Please imagine this situation, how you might feel about it, and think it over. 
Forgive me for bad English and for possibly unnecessary emotions.
All goodness and peace!
Thanks to everyone who spoke out against the removal of the Russian flag, for speaking out against the senseless stupidity, which is already enough in the world.
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That’s an interesting discussion but based on almost nothing. There is absolutly no guidelines, rules, indication, preselection or whatever on how or why using a flag on ogs at first.
You select a flag for whatever you want here, be the color of your napkin, the shape maybe, the memory of a cake, the song of a bird, the dream of last night, or be the place you will never go or the place you want to spend the rest of your life.
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I feel like we (as a whole) tend to look at the worse possible case scenario and act accordingly as if it was true. It’s possible that there could be people who do “wave” the Russian flag for political reasons and what not, but you shouldn’t assume that for everyone.
Why can’t we all act civil and expect the best of people? We’re just a bunch of go players and if need be can have conversations on what some people might view as a polarizing topic. But anything past that is out of the scope of what I think the site should do. Suggestions are always welcome, but trying to enforce your own ideas and beliefs are not.
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