(I’ve updated the proposal to say 1700 and 3kyu.)
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Oh that’s just my own opinion of where the bar should stand. Higher as 3k one has to prove by wins his level, not by a declaration but ok if it’s 1k i wouldn’t mind that much.
Still IMHO, it could be a great feature to care about the symbolic values of the rating for some players like to reach dan or sdk level. So i would propose a slightly lower entry point (12k? ) for the intermediate class.
Finally for beginners i am inspired by EGF as they lowered the starting to 30k, and with this in mind, a 23k entrance could do the trick ?
Maybe a poll for the rank to consider each entrance point could give some better view?
About the 25k i feel it’s bit messy because some with a few experience can already crush someone with no experience. So my suggestion of 30k (some rating even started at 40k if i remember well)
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Reasonable arguments… I’m not too fussed about the precise values, and we could also change them later if we think something else will work better.
Note that the initial rating will be displayed as ? regardless (not even a number), and it will make a giant leap in one direction or the other after their first game (still displayed as ? though). It’s not until they have a few games under their belt that they’ll get something like 20k? showing up, and by then the rating will hopefully have settled a bit.
Poll for initial rank (displayed as ?) for beginner:
- 20kyu
- 21kyu
- 22kyu
- 23kyu
- 24kyu
- 25kyu
0
voters
Poll for initial rank (displayed as ?) for intermediate:
- 10kyu
- 11kyu
- 12kyu
- 13kyu
- 14kyu
- 15kyu
0
voters
Poll for initial rank (displayed as ?) for advanced:
- 1dan
- 1kyu
- 2kyu
- 3kyu
- 4kyu
- 5kyu
0
voters
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Great!
Well, these are just entrance points as you said.
I still very very encourage to not show them clearly (like better read the FAQ for details) but instead to let a 3 explicit options
of an estimated qualitative experience of the game
Beginner
Intermediate
Advanced
No reference to kyu dan and such so that players don’t go wrong
Oh, how does your proposal handle the existing accounts, which started at 6k?
Would you restart them at some new different points or preserve that as a fourth entry point?
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Presumably the vast majority of existing accounts have settled into a correct-enough rating by now, with no lasting impact from their entry points. The current proposal leaves every existing rating alone.
But, I imagine it would be possible to do a filter for players with very little game history (say, still at ?) or that match the “slow descent pattern” that @benjito mentioned, and assign them a beginner rating (or something). Not sure.
@anoek, WDYT?
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Agreed. We’d only mention the ranges, to give people that understand Go ranks a guideline of what we mean by “beginner”, “intermediate”, and “advanced”.
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That’s the problem with beginners.
Don’t let them think a 1d or a 1k is the lowest level available, as it seems it happened some years ago.
I would prefer a sub information for each like
“you are new to the game, played a few only or very casually”
“You have already a bunch of games, some ideas on strategy and tactics, you may read sequences sometimes”
“You have a solid experience of the game through many of them, do understand and put in use most of the fondamentals and may succeed in winning serious tournaments.”
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I’m inclined to think we force all new accounts to go through the same process. I don’t think we want to force new accounts to use an existing rating as family members in the same house or folks from the same school / office are common legitimate use cases. I also am not sure offering it as an option would be that great of an idea either as if you have an account with an established rank, there aren’t that many legitimate reasons that you should be creating a new one, while it does open up several scenarios for abuse.
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I agree all new accounts go through the same process.
I meant, once the system is in place, we could find new-ish users that started at 6k, whose rank is NOT really established yet, and do a one-off adjustment of their rating to 20k (or whatever), to fix accounts that started BEFORE the new system was in place.
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Oh I see - quite possibly yes. Are you thinking of providing them with an option for them to adjust their rank if they want? I could get on board with that. Applying that retroactively (basically replaying their wins and losses) might be feasible too, but might warrant some more consideration and pondering before committing to that plan.
I like the descriptions you proposed. I threw them in ChatGPT and below is what I got.
Although the wording is a bit more formal, I like some of the nuances it brings and that it’s a bit more explicit.
You are new to the game, having played only a few times or very casually.
You have accumulated a fair number of gameplays, developed some strategic insights, and may consult sequences occasionally.
You possess a solid mastery of the game, demonstrating expertise through extensive experience. You comprehend and effectively apply fundamental principles, and you may excel in competitive tournament settings.
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I liked how this thread started, but ChatGPT gobbledegook, dear God no!
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Please be constructive. Folks are just sharing ideas.
I’m not clear what you don’t like. Is it the phrasing? If so, what would you propose?
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IMO, the words “beginner”, “intermediate”, and “advanced” are all the beginners need to know. They’ll gloss over the ranks. Experienced players will ignore the words and look at the ranks.
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We could also have a small graphic or short sentence that explains ranks, but I don’t think we need that.
But here’s some text that’d probably work if people want something:
The ranks on OGS count down from 25 kyu to 1 kyu, then up from 1 dan to 9+ dan. Your rank helps you find opponents near your skill level and will update when you play games. If you don’t know your rank, select “Beginner”!
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- The text is too long, on a new account landing page you don’t want people to have to read long bits of text, every extra second is a chance to get bored and leave. Good UX means quick to navigate, parse and find the right option.
- The text style is overly wordy and verbose, like the author has just eaten a thesaurus and vomited.
- The text is wrong, a 4k does not “possess a solid mastery of the game” and does not “excel in competitive tournament settings”, those words, if read, will encourage a 4k to select Intermediate.
- Even dan players often have a sense of (false?) modesty and don’t see themselves as Advanced, particular with that description so might not select Advanced.
- I think having kyu/dan rank ranges visible somehow, but less prominent (e.g. smaller text, or on hover of a help icon) than the Beginner/Intermediate/Advanced is useful so that non-beginners can choose the appropriate one. Ranks are better than words for this.
- No wordy descriptions, they are an ambiguous waste of screen and brain space.
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Thanks. Much more informative than your original reply. I agree on the wordiness.
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1 and 2: i agree and even i feel the meaning itself being distorted.
3: I dunno. Advanced have accumulate a lot of knowledge and experience, and the goal to win a tournament may become a good criteria.
5 and 6: ranks can confuse a beginner, words have their usefulness.
I agree. I think Beginner is clear for most people, including a newcomer to the game.
The difficulty is Intermediate vs Advanced, which is hugely subject to interpretation and context. For example, in Canada, I consider myself “Advanced” given the distribution of players at the club I used to go to. In Japan as “Intermediate”, given that there are many stronger players here.
I don’t think we’ll find the perfect wording that everyone agrees on, but hopefully a happy medium somewhere.
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