Tabletop RPG Discussion Thread

I’ve been crazy busy and working on this reply ever since. So know that you are not alone :wink:.

 

You are writing a book? About what? Are you an author? If so, I have questions :scream:. I’m very interested, as I have an affinity for writing myself :blush:.

 

This is an issue of TTRPG’s to this day. Big things come out from big name TTRPG authors and fans go wild for the product. But spend a little time on many of these titles and you will find endless conversations on the net where people are trying to understand the rules. They’ve read them, they’ve talked to people online, they’ve run numerous sessions with the rules, and they still are unsure if they understand the system correctly. This, sadly, is a commonplace feature of the TTRPG world, that has been present since it’s inception back in 1974.

I think you are being too hard on yourself (calling yourself an idiot… stop that :weary:). D&D 4E is a Wargame/RPG hybrid, in my opinion. You are not alone in thinking it is an overcomplicated mess. Starting out with that being your first RPG experience would have been extremely difficult, unless you had a DM that was willing to drip feed you the mechanics as they came up in-game. Or who was willing to conduct some private study sessions with you, walking you through learning via gameplay based exercises; to directly illustrate how the mechanics worked.

Having someone who can coherently answer your questions is essential in learning something complicated. The fact that the person who interpreted mechanics was also confused, would have made the situation nearly impossible to traverse. You are being quite unfair to yourself, in this scenario, and that makes me deeply sad. The Player/GM relationship is a sacred contract of trust. Only when there is trust, transparency, cooperation, and a willingness to participate as equals in a shared narrative, can there be harmony :heart:.

It sounds like your friend didn’t take his role with the seriousness it deserved. Your struggle is a casualty of this fact and that situation. You are not an idiot who lacked the mental resources necessary to understand basic concepts. Concerning TTRPGs, having a mentor show you the ropes is pretty standard fare. You lacked this and to add insult to injury, your GM, the person in charge of validating your knowledge and manifesting a world and gameplay experience based on the knowledge you were trying to learn, continually misrepresented the information you were struggling desperately to understand. Seriously… give yourself a break. And a hug too :hugs:.

 

I’m curious what “learning the rules” looks like to you? For me, you start by simply reading the rulebook. Throughout this process, you write down any questions you have along the way. Any questions at all, no matter how slight your uncertainty. When you finish the book, you hop online, and you ask others about these questions. That may or may not lead to you feeling you fully understand the rules. Chances are thought that you probably don’t. At this point I read the rulebook a second time, writing down questions again.

I might try to find a video of people playing the game, if I think it might help. That depends on the system and the aspects I’m struggling to wrap my head around. After a second read through, I am either ready to try and play a game with other people, or I try to find others online to play a short session or number of sessions with.

Some systems can be understood with a single read through, though these are pretty rare in my experience. Most require a lot of information gathering, analysis, and contemplation, before I can use them. I have always found talking to others, who have played the game before, to be my greatest source of useful knowledge during the “trying to understand the system” stage. With most rulesets, reading the rules alone is not enough to understand what the game looks like during actual game play. At least not in my head prior to sitting down to run through a session for the first time.

 

No, you pretty much nailed it. And science backs this up. Tons of studies have been done on social media that prove this. One study I remember was conducted around Facebook. People have their timelines that are full of short and interesting stories or videos. There is such a large sampling of this content, that people can get lost there for hours. Many people spend multiple hours, each day, viewing their social media; not working on their pages or responding to messages. Just reading and watching.

So, this test group was given videos of different lengths. They were hooked up to measuring devices and they tested what grabbed and held their attention the most. People who did not engage in social media practices regularly, had longer attention spans. This was measured by how long they watched a video before moving onto the next one. They observed that the more often an individual engages in social media viewing behavior, the shorter their attention span becomes.

For the group that spent 1-2 hours a day, the average time invested before moving onto the next video was 1-2 minutes. For those that spent 3 to 5 hours a day, the viewing time was 45 seconds to 1 minute. Finally, for users who spent 6 to 9 hours a day, the viewing length was 15 to 30 seconds. Additional aspects of the testing showed that this change was not just related to their viewing behavior, but resulted in a genuine rewiring of their brain’s attention span, present in all area’s of their life.

The longer people spend watching viral formula videos, the more their brain expects to be wowed quickly. And when they encounter content that does not immediately draw them in, they are compelled, akin to an addict seeking a fix, to move on to the next video or textual story byte for their next “hit”. Comparing crack cocaine (a 5 minute high) and social media viral content… the human brain chemically desires the next hit in a strikingly similar and addictive way.

So yeah, you are spot on with your deduction. It is a huge problem and something that is spreading throughout the world. It is one of the issues facing humanity in the digital age, but not something we are likely to see overcome. Addictive behavior will always be a thing, as will different people having different types of addictions. For the mass majority of the population, digital age based addictions reign supreme. For others, it might be books or TTRPGs. No matter how you slice it, we all seek out pleasure in one form or another :wink:.

In the end, you just have to strive to find likeminded individuals who share your passions. If you are willing to use the internet to play TTRPGs, then you will never struggle to find a game. But if you want to do the real world thing, then you are bound to face a lot of troubles related to getting various adults to all show up at the same scheduled time; on a reoccurring basis, when they have lives, jobs, children, and other responsibilities to juggle :frowning_face:.

 

This is exactly what I am aiming for; genuine Collaborative Storytelling. I try to avoid saying “No” unless I have a very good reason. If I must refuse a player’s desire, I try to understand what they were after and why, to then help them achieve or obtain it by another path. I love when players throw a wrench in my plans, but often I find myself a little frustrated, because players simply want to find out what happens next :see_no_evil:. Which isn’t bad. That means I’ve captured their attention.

There are some systems that focus on telling a collaborative story, attempting to break away from the traditional TTRPG game formula. But I find them to be too focused on unnecessary “gamey” elements. A common focus is on trying to tell a story in a three arc structure, akin to novel or screenplay writing. Most choose to thematically deliver the game in familiar Stage, TV, or Movie tropes. There are still plenty of system mechanics to learn and a great deal of control and limitations being exerted, by those mechanics, over player imaginations.

A true collaborative story should be equal parts GM and player. There does need to be a central player, that the other players interact with, who is charged with representing reality and the game world. Who must also determine when to prompt players for rolls, challenging player actions. And unless your group is made up of people comfortable with improvising and generating their own stories, players will need someone to help move the story forward when the players aren’t pushing the narrative. This can be a tough balance to strike, given that people get passionate and will sometimes take the limelight for too long or will be hesitant to participate.

In the end you need a GM who the players respect and place their trust in. A respected GM will be able to maintain control of the player spotlight, without players ever feeling frustrated or slighted. When players trust the GM has their best interests at heart, they don’t sweat controlling behavior in the slightest. They know the GM will make sure they get a chance to manifest their cool ideas or to capitalize on opportunities, before moving the game past the point where they could no longer take action. When you have this trust and balance between participants… magic happens, because nobody is fighting for control over the story.

A good GM is plugged into their players more than the story itself. Understanding the pulse of player investment is critical to a successful experience, as well as is making sure each player is given sufficient reasons to remain invested in the story. There is a science to this, and it is one that I enjoy exploring when I play. I am far from having some sort of formula. Instead I think of it like a playground where I tend to learn multiple new things each time I play. It is my most favorite thing to do in the entire world :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:.

 

I wholeheartedly agree, especially in a TTRPG setting. Without cooperation in a TTRPG, in-fighting, rules-lawyering, players resisting or contradicting the GM’s role, and a variety of other issues tend to crop up fast. However, I very much believe that who is GM’ing will have a serious impact on the game that unfolds. A GM has incredible influence over the overall play experience. Few people seem to grasp what is possible as a GM, or to what degree they can positively influence the entire experience.

I tend to play with adults and children that are shy. They are not outgoing, outspoken, storytellers, or improve experts. They are nervous, unsure, reserved, and completely out of their element. They have no clue how anything works, because they have never experienced this exercise before. On the very first session I spend about 20 minutes explaining the basic concept of collaborative storytelling and how the dice mechanic works (mentioned in the 4th paragraph). I talk to them about imagination, creativity, and give them examples of how to speak (more on this later).

I assure them vocalizing well is a process and a skill to be learned, but as long as I can see they are trying, they will be rewarded in game. I encourage creativity. I flat out tell them that even if something doesn’t seem particularly feasible, no matter the situation, if they put a lot of effort into it, especially in terms of taking on an accent, striving to give extra detail in their descriptions, or coming up with a creative application, that I will allow it and react in a way that makes their contribution viable in the story.

In this way our relationship is symbiotic. I need them to be invested if we are all going to take part in telling a great collaborative story. They have desires, motivations, and ambitions within the story and for their character, which they can pursue much more successfully, the further they invest themselves into the process and the game world. It is a beautiful melting pot kind of experience and people buy in pretty darn quickly.

Sometimes people really struggle to figure out how to include themselves in a scene or how to develop their identity as a character. I use my NPC’s to present them with opportunities and if that fails, I flat out have NPCs or world events include them without permission; forcing them to react to what is happening to their character. This is one example of an easy fix for a common problem with non-TTRPG or non-storyteller individuals.

GM’ing is a skill, as is storytelling. But the real art of a Collaborative Storytelling GM, is to help each player at the table to feel comfortable and to help their character develop. This increases their interest, investment, and inevitably produces passion for the experience and story being told. Synergy is slowly birthed between parties, and before you know it a story is unfolding in a very organic and fulfilling way :heart:.


 

Earlier I mentioned giving players examples of how to speak. In case you are curious, here is an example:

 

My Advice To Players Before Giving A Narrative Example

Tell me what you are thinking, sensing, or doing. The other players can only imagine as far as you lead them in their mind’s eye. Detail matters. Even small and insignificant ones. Don’t worry about getting it right, just try to feel it out.

Note: I’ve separated the response into sections for the purpose of highlighting the anatomy of the response. In an actual game, the player would not point out what they are sensing, thinking/feeling, or doing separately, as I have done below.

 

GM: “After you leave the restaurant, you head home, taking a neighborhood street you’ve walked many times. In the middle of a sentence, you quickly halt your speech, reacting to the telltale noise of an aluminum trash can being knocked over behind you. A man holding a club is shambling towards you. His head is hanging low, at an impossible angle. His feet are dragging, but he is moving swiftly towards you. About 10 feet out a hint of decay and human excrement wafts your way, and in this moment, you are positive this person is already dead. What do you do?”

 

Standard TTRPG Player Response To A Threat

“It’s time for a beat down. I pick up the trash can and throw it at him.”

 

My Example Of What A Collaborative Story Player Response To A Threat Should Strive For

What Their Sensing

“The smell is revolting, and I instinctively cover my nose and mouth with my sleeve. I can see his skin glistening under the moonlight with a sheen I’ve only ever seen on meat that is spoiled. I’m straining my vision, trying to deduce more details, but I can’t make out much under this dim streetlight.”

 

What Their Thinking/Feeling

“Fear takes root in my chest. My heart is strained with a flight or fight response. I don’t want to be here. I don’t want anything to do with this guy. I’m angry, scared, and my mind is hazy as I try to process what is happening. I begin to panic, unsure what to do. I want to run, but a voice inside is telling me that this individual isn’t going to just let me get away. I’m petrified they are faster than they currently seem. I think the best option would be to try to buy myself an opportunity to get away. I have my best friend to think about as well.”

 

What They Are Doing

“A trash can is nearby (player inserted fact, no need to ask the GM), so I move over to pick it up. It is heavier than I expect. I don’t think I can lift it, so I pull the top off and a bag is sitting right on top. I grasp and pick it up by the neck, right below where the pull strings have been tied. I begin to swing it. I make one full rotation, trying to first give it some momentum, and then I release it, aiming it the best I can.”

 

I am not sure that I understand what you mean by this. It has been my experience that the people I play with are always the same, regardless of the adventure or the characters they are playing. They behave the same and interact with one another the same. Their personalities are consistent as is their play styles. Could you elaborate on this?

 

Given the undecided, unmapped, unknowable formula of my games, I find that my players are pretty immersed in what is happening. They are simply playing to find out what happens next. Players generally remain interested throughout the entire experience. I’m on a constant vigil, so I can target any person in-game who appears to have become preoccupied out of the game. The concept of getting bored in game is pretty unusual to me. Then again, I am constantly fielding feedback from my players, even mid-game. This is a [u]shared/u] narrative, and I make sure they never lose sight of that.

 

I personally do not see the value in this approach. If there were more people willing to help newcomers get started and become settled into the TTRPG world, I think the player base would be much larger. TTRPG books tend to be large tomes full of rules, that are organized in a way that is helpful to existing players who are referencing them for specific information. This style of layout rarely works in terms of teaching someone, who does not know anything about the game, how to play it. So that first read through isn’t going to be as educational or instructional as it could be.

Learning a complex game in this way is difficult and unpleasant. It certainly can feel overwhelming and be confusing. I’m experienced with these books and I still need to see a game being played, before all the rules I’ve read can be properly understood. I cannot imagine a child reading a player handbook and walking away with an understanding of how the game works, just on their own. Given enough time and dedication, sure. But how does this teach them how to GM?

Performing the role of GM in a specific game and possessing the skill set of a Game Master, are two radically different things. The role of GM requires that you be as fluent as possible with the rules, be able to help your players with the game system when they need it, and to grasp the underlying game mechanic theory. Theory being why the rules work the way they do and understanding how to use them wisely to achieve your own GM ends. It is about being prepared before the session starts. Keeping up with player needs, soliciting feedback for the purpose of fine tuning the game experience, coordinating each week to make sure everyone can show up and having a Plan B ready if some folks cannot make it.

Performing the role of Game Master requires that you develop the skill set related to the art of storytelling. A Game Master develops skills related to creativity, imagination, vocalizing their characters in unique ways, improvisation, prop creation, player aid development, and they must continually strive to hone their craft. This might include reading books, learning new information, practicing artistic pursuits, working on their comedy, socializing with other Game Masters and discussing how they operate, etc… A Game Master is a showman (or woman) :face_with_monocle:.

Nobody is going to learn how to do this well from a Player Handbook or Dungeon Master’s Guide. This is the sort of thing you either have a natural aptitude for, or that you learn from someone else; mimicking and practicing until one day you aren’t trying to be somebody you aren’t. You simply are that person.

 

You say “people will understand different things differently”, which is exactly why a teacher is needed. A teacher can provide context, which is crucial to a person understanding something. A teacher provides a foundation, a starting point. But having a teacher in no way limits a person from thinking their own thoughts, interpreting what they have learned in new ways, or from flat out rejecting what they were taught at a later time.

Think of children and their parents. Based on what my parents taught me, there are some lessons I agree with, others I’ve used as a starting point but expanded upon further, and other bits I’ve completely disregarded as nonsense. But before this could happen, I first need to wrap my head around the basic concept to begin with. I needed a framework to start with before I could begin building, modifying, and transmogrifying the idea as needed.

There is a difference between knowing a piece of information and understanding it. Self-led learning will teach you facts. However, you won’t gain context until you gain a sufficiently large enough body of supporting information. Only then will you be able to extrapolate context. Possessing information is not the same as knowing what it means, how to interpret it, or how to apply it in different situations. Another solid example of this is learning by watching Go players who are significantly more advanced than you.

Yes, you can learn how they make moves, which you can mimic successfully in your own games. However, this isn’t wise, because your knowledge is limited to what you’ve witnessed being played. Sooner or later you’ll face an opponent who will respond in a way that you have no memory of. You won’t know what to do, because when you witnessed these moves being played, you never learned why they were being made. You have no idea what the skilled Go player was thinking or what kind of logic or rationalizing was driving them to place the stones where they did.

 

I think this depends completely upon the teacher and the student. A teacher can push that there is only one right way to think about something. That things are black and white. What is, simply is, and there can be no other possibilities. Or they can show the information from multiple vantage points, explaining various vectors of a lesson topic. For example, if you wanted to teach someone what a horse looks like, you can show them a 2D picture, showing them a single side. But if six pictures were taken from all possible sides (top down, bottom up, left side, right side, front, and back), the person would have a much better idea of what a horse looks like.

Likewise, a student can choose to believe what they are being told, without question. Without any analysis or curiosity or mental pondering. Or they can ask questions, critically analyze what they are being told, compare what they are being told to other facts that they know, challenge ideas being shared, seek out and compare what they have learned to another source of information covering the same topic, etc… They can choose to be a robot that unquestioningly accepts programming and then commits it to their belief system, or they can choose to be an active participant in the process, choosing what to believe, and to know why they’ve accepted it.

 

I do play with my children a lot. But I play with many who are not my own. I’m an advocate for the power of imagination and I am passionate about learning. In social situations I am always teaching somebody, something. It is practically all I do when conversing with others. Sharing knowledge is both a joy and something I view as a social responsibility. I’m a teacher at heart. Learning is my second greatest passion in life. Using my creativity to play with the ideas I have learned is my first.

While not a direct response to the quoted snippet above I wanted to add this… I feel that people get stuck in their heads by the limiting ideas and beliefs that have been placed there by others. I feel a responsibility to educate those around me, especially in regard to challenging self-limiting behaviors and beliefs. I’ve spent a great deal of my life sad and feeling broken. I had a hard go of it growing up and when I finally got free of that situation, it took me a long time to sort out that pain and to accept responsibility for who I had allowed myself to become.

Several years ago, I began to find self-help books and it changed my life. It changed my mind too. The more I learned, the more I felt free. I am still growing and healing and learning. I hope this process never stops. I know what it is to be hurting inside and how it feels to struggle year after year in a life you wish wasn’t your own. I also know how uplifting it can be to obtain information that changes the way you view something. I try very hard to pay it forward, in terms of helping others to grow and find joy in their own lives. Most of my life is dedicated to this pursuit, albeit in my own family.

 

I recently came to the same line of thinking. I was depressed that I am 38 with no career and I’m in a point in my life where financial assets could make a big difference. I wished I had done more with my life. But my wife reminded me that most people go to school and establish a career first; then family. But I simply did it backwards, choosing to establish a family and to self-teach along the way. But now that the last little one has been born and because of where we are at in our life, right now is the beginning of the career development phase of my life.

 

I got married at 22. I just had my last child 10 months ago. My wife had my daughter, became sick in the hospital after the delivery, was ill for months, then diagnosed with cancer. She had surgery, spent months recovering, and is now on the mend with no chemo or radiation. She has a slow growing cancer and should be fine for the next 20 or so years. Plenty of time to try and attack it through naturopathic means. My wife is going back to work and I’ve been deliberating on what to do next. I’ve been in “build a family” mode for 15 years and I’m finally at a point where I can begin to think seriously about starting a career.

As a stay at home Dad, homemaker, and daily teacher to my kids, my options for career are a bit limited. I’ve wanted to write since I had my second child (that was 13 years ago). I have played with writing all of these years, on and off, but never taken it seriously. I only ever wrote for fun. Given my fractured time and existing responsibilities I think I would struggle to hold any kind of a normal work schedule. But writing just might work. I’ve been thinking about it a lot lately. I was planning to give it a solid shot.

Unfortunately, I realized I’ve been sick a few months back. I have cancer and I don’t know what is going to happen now. I’ve been struggling a great deal with it. But at the moment, because of this, writing is on hiatus. Know that it is on my mind and is a deep rooted desire of mine though :blush:.

 

I try very hard not to talk with people through Facebook. As I learn more about big tech companies and the mining of data and social communications, I’m slowly phasing out certain online avenues. Would OGS private messages be okay with you? You seem to make it back to this site every few days, so far anyway :stuck_out_tongue:.

 

Never! I genuinely appreciate your time and I’m enjoying our communication very much. Please never worry about saying too much :hugs:.

 

You have truly made me smile. You’ve said so many nice things and paid me so many compliments in this single post, as well as others. Know that you have made my heart smile and that I find your praise uplifting. I read this post a few days ago and things you’ve spoken continue to shine light in the shadows of my mind. Thank you for your kindness and cocksure (← love this word) syrupy sentiments. They are genuinely and sincerely appreciated :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:.

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