Mostly through the digital collections from the Japanese National Parliament Library (国立国会図書館), some from old book collections auctions where they would show inside pages as proof of content.
Haha I had to look up why the Japanese Parliament is called the National Diet
Because most of the parliament members are fat cats?
Thank you! Very interesting!
Looks like I can reuse this!
After more than a week of looking through more than a thousand Hoensha games in the newspaper/magazine collections, I’ve found this player 木原亀太郎 Kihara (or Kiwara) Kametaro who was a Shodan on the 1880 Honinbo House registry and 8k (2d) on the 1891 Hoensha member list, that I think is a good representative of a Shodan player around the 1880s.
There are a total of 17 games where he only won 5 of them, although the last 5 games from 1889 and 1893 (where he lost them all) came from the collections of Honinbo Shusai (when he was still a shodan) and Honinbo Shuei, so they are probably bias. Just consider the first 12 games from 1884 to 1886, 木原亀太郎 had a winrate about 40% which suggested these games are pretty even and reflect his strength well, where most of them were against Hoensha 7k(3d) to 9k(1d) players.
I compiled a library for these 17 games played by Kihara (or Kiwara) Kametaro (木原亀太郎) between 1884 and 1893.
And my personal opinion about his games is that he was a pretty solid and mostly use fuseki popular around the 1880s in Hoensha games, and favor territory and thick connected groups. Not particularly good at ko fights, but relatively decent at local fights and semeai. Hard to say about his end-game, since most records don’t include end-game sequences.
One interesting thing I notice for transcribing these old records is that since the move number is marked by Chinese numeral vertically, they would use a square to represent 100 (一百) and a triangle for 200 (二百). And I’ve never seen games with move more than 300 (where most of them just omitted end-game sequences). Also, there are surprising few errors and would include error corrections in the next volume if there were any. Surprisingly good quality and paying attention to details.
And finally here are all the raw records for the first 12 games between 1884 and 1886
Is this a common practice? How does this work?..
One reason is probably related to the ease of read for the records and printing consideration (if I am correct, printing at the time would require making physical mold plates for each page). Also, I think if all groups are already settled and no end-game ko fights that swap existing territories, there would be no particular interest in showing end game moves (records would show moves to the last major ko fights and mark who won that ko).
And the estimated scores from the OGS AI reviews of these games also showed the recorded scores are very close as AI predicted (no more than 1 or 2 points difference), which indicate even Shodan players in the 1880s were fairly good with their end-games.
Wow, so records of end games would be deliberately omitted??
At first, I had thought that you just meant that most records didn’t have an end game since one had not been played (i.e., the game ended by resignation earlier)
Yes, games with scoring results like B+4, W+5 wouldn’t shown to the last finishing moves. And out of these 17 games, 5 of them have clear counting score.
Wild guess, maybe last move or sth?
It’s related to the comments above, I’ll make a zoom in screenshot
It basically said black 23 should be played at the printed circled spot.
The rest comments are black 27 should be played at move 46 spot; white 42 should be played at move 44 spot; black 69 could be played at the print triangle spot; and black 85 allows white to cut off black group and push through is the big mistake that cost the game.
I think I read in “Invincible” (a wonderful English book about life and games of Shusaku), that less important/official games were often recorded by the players themselves, perhaps a day or more after the game.
Perhaps they wouldn’t remember the exact order of the late endgame, days after the game, so they recorded only the moves where they were 100% sure to remember the order of moves correctly?
I’m actually under the impression that this is some kind of tradition to omit the endgame. I remember seeing recently (I looked it up again) someone commenting on how the sgf record ends early in
45th Meijin Title between SHIBANO Toramaru － IYAMA Yuta (2020/8/26)
Here’s the game on go4go (thanks to them) https://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/92187
and on OGS for convenience
The thing is they do play it out and score it in person (jump to 9:24:21 or thereabouts)
but apparently in the official records the last bit of endgame isn’t recorded.
This feels right to me. I’ve not looked into it but I recall I once tried to find a game to memorize and looked at some which ended with a score but the records I found seemed unfinished. Totally unscientific though
Not even all modern pro games have scribes. And most scribes are insei or low dan pros as their “duties”. And since the early insei system was also established by Hoensha, so I am not sure when did games utilizing scribes become common.
And a lot of the ancient games would be played for more than one day (the one-day “fast” games were also first introduced by Hoensha around the 1880s), so when a game was sealed there would be recorded to that point. The reason for games to not include small yose seem to be a conscious choice.
I think it indeed has more to do with following traditions.
Again I’m reposting things I’ve read on facebook, which are awful to link to and find again but I read about this example of some controversy in endgame.
26th Japanese Kisei, title match #5
Ryu Shikun 7p (Black) vs. O Rissei 9p (White) W+R (5.5 komi)
The go4go link https://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/79
and on OGS.
There’s discussion of the game here but I’ll highlight the main section in the link in case it dies or you don’t want to follow it: History of Topics 2002 | Nihon kiin
I think the TLDR is that things like filling dame are very vague in practice comparing to the official rules. Ryu lost 6 stones when not paying attention and that caused the dispute.
Disagreement mars conclusion of 5th Kisei game
Until the last two moves, the fifth game of the 26th Kisei title match, played at the Manseikaku Hotel by the side of Lake Toya in the town of Abuta, Hokkaido, on 20 and 21 February, was another relatively peaceful affair, without any large fighting. O Rissei won the game by resignation after 300 moves, but actually the result of the game was reversed during the playing of the final dame points.
What happened was that at around 7:10 pm while the players were filling in the final dame points, O Rissei put a group of six stones into atari with move 298, but Ryu did not connect, playing 299 elsewhere. Ryu was clearly not paying close attention to the dame-filling moves because he thought that the game was over. On move 293 he had said: “It’s finished, isn’t it?”. However, O did not respond, so from his point of view the game was still in progress. After playing 299, Ryu realized that his stones were in atari and he made as if to replay his move, but at this point O said to him: “I haven’t said anything [i.e. that the game was over].” Ryu reacted with incomprehension. O repeated his comment and asked the game recorder to confirm that he hadn’t said anything. The game recorder was unable to confirm or deny this, so O asked for the referee to be called.
According to the rules and conditions of the Kisei tournament, any dispute during a title-match game is to be resolved by the game referee in consultation with representatives of the sponsor, the Yomiuri Newspaper, and the Nihon Ki-in. The referee was Ishida Yoshio, who with the Yomiuri Newspaper and Nihon Ki-in representatives, conferred for about an hour and also reviewed the videotape of the game.
When the game resumed, Ishida gave their ruling: according to the Nihon Ki-in official rules of go, a game continues until both players agree that it is over. The videotape gave no evidence that O had agreed the game was over, so his claim was accepted. O sought confirmation that it could therefore play; when this was given by Ishida, he captured the six stones. If the game had finished without incident, Ryu would have won by 3.5 points.
Ryu did not resignaiton immediately. After breathing out loudly three times, he asked Ishida a question [as soon as something like this happens, the game is considered suspended and the timekeeper stops the clock – Ryu was, as usual, in his final minute of byo-yomi]. His question concerned the question of whether he had replayed a move. When the game was first suspended, after Black 299, O commented that Ryu had already committed an infringement, replaying move 285. He said he hadn’t objected at the time, but his clear implication was that for that reason he was not going to permit a second infringement. Before he resigned, Ryu wanted Ishida to confirm whether or not he had replayed his move. Ishida said that he was unable to comment, as the camera angle on the video, from directly above the board, made it impossible to see. O then pointed out that he only referred to it while the game was suspended, that is, that he was not officially objecting. Actually, in both cases – the question of replaying a move and whether O agreed that the game was over – Ryu did not seem to be actually disputing O’s assertions. Rather, it seemed that he had been so caught up in the game that he was completely oblivious. O firmly maintained that Ryu had let go of his stone before replaying it.
If O had agreed with Ryu that the game was over, does that mean that he would not have had the right to capture the six stones? According to the rules, a game ends when the players pass in succession. However, according to the official commentary on the rules (see “The Go Player’s Almanac”, pages 178, 183 and 184), it seems that dame-filling moves and necessary reinforcements inside groups can be played either before or after the end of the game. In the latter case, the moves are not part of the game, i.e. “these are not moves as defined by the rules, and need not be played according to the rules”. This would seem to indicate that O wouldn’t have been allowed to capture the stones if he had agreed the game was over. In practice, players often agree that the game is over, then proceed to fill in the dame without anyone passing a move, so there is a gap between the Japanese rules and what actually happens in practice.
One can certainly say that under the traditional etiquette of go no one would capture stones in the dame-filling stage if both players had agreed the game was over. On the other hand, no one questioned O’s argument that if he had not stated the game was over then it was still in progress. (Just for the record, Ishida couldn’t even confirm from the videotape that Ryu himself had said that the game was over. O didn’t purposely ignore him: he says he didn’t hear him, which is reasonable if Ryu’s words were not audible on the video – quite apart from the fact that O has suffered from ringing in the ears and consequent hearing problems since 1998.
This problem arises from the stubborn Japanese resistance to counting dame-filling moves as part of the game. Although this is the first time that a problem has occurred in a title match, it’s long been one of the well-known hazards of Japanese go. One player announces the game is over; this puts the other player on the spot: he can still do something, but if he disagrees, that will be a poweerful hint to the first player to have another look at the board. The relevant World Amateur Go Championship rule states: “The players continue to play alternately until all the neutral points have been filled and all necessary defensive moves have been made.” If professionals adopted a rule like this, problems like this would never arise.
This makes an enormous difference to the title match. Ryu loses a game in which he had played well and instead of needing just one more win to take the Kisei title he is faced with a kadoban. There is a two-week break before the sixth game, scheduled to be played in the town of Oyama in Shizuoka Prefecture on 6 and 7 June. Will the break be long enough for Ryu to recover from the shock? One good sign is that Ryu himself has accepted responsibility for his slip, saying he regretted his carelessness and that he had already switched over to thinking about the sixth game.
If they had played with Chinese rules or even u must finnish Dame this would not have happened. Oh how uninteresting it would be for our thread!