Think differently part 2. :0

[flovo]

@tonybe

they want a fully functional super-computer model of everything those systems are capable of doing

If they want to do that they have to calculate the phase space of the universe using something like quantum field theory and general relativity. Genes, conscious brings and all their doing will emerge from those theories.

Please note that the huge almost-uniform soup of hydrogen, helium, and lithium is capable of creating all those other elements, galaxies and planets and so on. So, a supercomputer model of everything the first state is capable of doing has to contain the second state, since we know the first state is capable to transform into the second state.

Phase space

Btw. Atoms aren’t elementary. One probably can’t call even elemental particles elemental.

Elementary particle

Also the number of elemental particles in the universe is not fixed. Even at a fixed point in time (what ever this means) the number of elemental particles in the universe is not as clear-cut as one would think (you can complain to quantum field theory if you like).

Quantum field theory

[wind_water]

This has some relationship to Napster’s OP:

excerpted from an article titled Why I Seldom Teach The Hero’s Journey Anymore — And What I Teach Instead by Craig Chalquist, Ph.D.(https://www.huffpost.com/author/craig-chalquist-phd)

The Journey of Reenchantment :

Stage 1: Islands and Oases of Childhood Magic

We all come in with this, even when born into impoverishment. Dolls and plants speak to us. Animals make magic. Fabulous beasts hide under the bed. Dream and daytime merge.

Stage 2: Disenchantment, Forgetfulness, and Adaptation

As we get older we learn to adapt to the outer world, and to societies often unfriendly to the world of fantasy in which we live. Birds stop speaking to us. Imaginary friends go away. We try to be grown up.

Stage 3: Alienation from the Magical

Often we stand apart from the magic for so long that we forget it was there at all. From this springs the odd idea that fantasies and fairy tales are only for children. Creativity gives way to commutes, paperwork, and “practicality,” as though loss of wonder were practical. (My impression is that about 80 to 90 percent of Americans live at this level. The rest don’t say much, in public anyway.)

Stage 4: Rupture and Underworld Descent (if you’re lucky)

When we detach for too long from the numinous, glamorous, intuitive side of life, it has a way of summoning us, usually through our own unconscious in the appearance of symptoms, nightmares, or just prolonged dissatisfaction. Troubles may confront us. What we take for normal and real turns inside out; nothing is as it seems. This is life telling us, “You were made for more.” The truly unfortunate are they who receive no further signals.

Stage 5: The First Seeking

What more? We go looking, discontented, confused, but resolved to seek what meaning and revelation can be found. We ask the big questions of ourselves. We question values and begin to study the worldview we look through instead of taking it for granted.

Stage 6: Reemergence, Gradual or Otherwise

Usually this phase ends with a feeling of relief. Vital energies flow once again. We haven’t found The Goal, perhaps, or The Source or The Prize or whatever the great answer is, but the very act of sustained searching for a path brings renewed life and yearning.

Stage 7: More Seeking

So we keep looking, learning new truths along the way, entering new relationships, finding mentors, discarding toxic people who deplete us, perhaps finding new occupations, certainly new interests. A common thought in this stage is, “Perhaps things weren’t so bleak as they seemed.” You’re right: they aren’t.

Stage 8: Finding the Magic Door

In Hermann Hesse’s novel Steppenwolf , lost and discontented Harry Haller walks down a dark, rainy street one evening and comes unexpectedly to an alley containing a neon sign with flashing words: Magic Theater — Entrance Not For Everyone. Eventually he goes inside — and awakens to the richness of his own imagination. You round a corner one day, and suddenly things make sense in a deep way. What was fragmented connects. Meaning appears. Your heart opens.

Stage 9: Learning to Live in Both Worlds

Campbell refers to being a “master” of both worlds, but for the less heroic, the role of the wayfarer or witness might fit better. We learn to live in the liminal zone between cultures, identities, spiritualities, aware of conscious decisions and unconscious promptings, logical rules and imagined ideals from the depths, the dayworld of consensus reality and the moonlit realm of intuition and dream. We have outgrown the urge to reduce each dimension of being to the other.

Stage 10: Opening the Door for Others

Which prepares us for mentoring others in how we got to this stage. The Hero would go on stage, appear before the royal court, lead a tickertape parade; we might prefer informal conversation, a bit of writing, a presentation or two, civic participation. We share how we moved from innocence to disenchantment to reenchantment and invite others to find their own path.

[tonybe]

Ha! I suspected my Gedankenexperiment would get me into that sort of trouble!

Guilty as charged

[Vsotvep]

@tonybe

I keep thinking I’m going to reach a point in this discussion where I’m OK with the idea that we’re just on different sides of some philosophical divide, and just shrug and walk away - but you keep mentioning things where we are so close and yet on different sides that I can’t help but keep poking at those edges.

I actually have the feeling we’re on the same side of the philosophical divide, but that we have some miscommunication.

@tonybe

And this is the part where I’m genuinely confused - you seem to have drawn a line at the motion of elementary particles and said - any descriptions beyond here do not add any additional complexity - and I’m honestly a bit puzzled.

I’m oversimplifying things, to explain my point about why the state space cannot grow (it’s kind of a property of being the state space: it is the set of all the possible configurations in a dynamical system; it cannot grow, since it already describes all the possible configurations; it’s what it is defined as).

It is impossible to know both the motion and location of elementary particles, by Heisenberg’s principle, so it is physically impossible to give a complete description of the state space even if we wanted to. However, as far as a description of the planet on a molecular is possible, the earth did not get a larger state space because of life getting into existence and evolving.

Perhaps, if you disagree with this, could you define what you mean exactly by state space?

In my analogy with computer memory, suppose we have a 3-bit memory, then the state space would be the collection of states “000”, “001”, “010”, “011”, “100”, “101”, “110” and “111”. A state is then just a possible configuration of the memory.

@tonybe

In order to model these phenomena accurately, the models would have to get more and more complex, and exist within an ever-larger series of non-overlapping state spaces.

Yes, they get more complex but the state space does not grow. That would imply the amount of material we work with would increase, or in other words, the amount of energy would not increase.

You’re confusing the complexity of the state space with the size of the state space.

[flovo]

@Vsotvep

It is impossible to know both the motion and location of elementary particles, by Heisenberg’s principle, so it is physically impossible to give a complete description of the state space even if we wanted to.

Quantum states aren’t described by the location and motion of elemental particles, but by wave functions of quantum fields. Using those wave functions you can describe all possible states, what should enable us to give a complete description of the state space.

What is impossible through: we cannot measure in which of those states our universe is in.

[wind_water]

[wind_water]

Just don’t Syd Barrett on us Napster. We need you around.

[wind_water]

I am really looking forward to reading the Carse book! I think this discussion got hung up on the word infinite. His approach to gaming seems to be “limited” vs. “open ended.” I much prefer an open ended (and possibly non competitive, how strange is that?) approach to interacting with the culture and world of Go; with a heavy emphasis on doing and experience. Thanks for sharing this!

[tonybe]

OK, I know I keep hammering on the same concepts, but it really seems to me like there’s something I’m trying to describe that’s not represented in your model.

I’m also becoming more and more aware that I’m using very specific terms and concepts incorrectly, and that’s getting me into semantic problems. Let me back up, try to describe things in the most clean and functional way I can, and maybe you can suggest the correct framework that would describe what I’m trying to get at.

So, let’s just focus on the realm of atoms, molecules, and chemical compounds to begin with.

If we go back in time to an earlier stage of the universe before large stars formed, we only have a few elements to play with (i.e. hydrogen, helium, and lithium). Now, in some sense, the possibility of other elements are implicit in the structure for how protons, neutrons, and electrons can fit together. However, the limited range of forces available at that time has not given rise to those other elements yet, and so the ways in which those 3 elements can interact are limited.

Given additional time, gravity, pressure, etc., new emergent structures evolve (massive stars) which are capable of creating new conditions that generate new elements - carbon, metals, etc. As a by-product of this emergent evolution, these new elements aren’t just floating around willy-nilly, they become concentrated into dense planets, where they can interact under new conditions that were not present before. These interactions then give rise to the rules and structures of chemistry. What before were individual atoms now get combined into molecules and compounds that have their own properties and rules of interaction. Again, one could argue that all of this was somehow implicit in the physical rules and constants that stabilized shortly after the big bang - but until those emergent/situational elements arose in our universe (i.e. stars/planets, etc) the actual/physical products were not available to interact.

Once they become available, those chemical compounds now create the potential for other emergent possibilities - new situations where additional complexity can form and evolve. Matter/energy exchange stabilizes to form the rudiments of what we call Life, and the interplay of those forces creates organic chemistry - generating a broad variety of new compounds that would not have been possible without the emergent processes that created them.

The interplay of these new organic compounds and the emergent matter/energy exchange then gives rise to new phenomena - unicellular and multi-cellular organisms, and the chemistry/mechanics of genetics - a way of using the rules from physics and chemistry in such a way that living matter can pass on structural/functional information across time, and slowly adapt to that environment, or even drastically reshape that environment.

I understand that the concept of “state space” may be the incorrect term to describe each individual layer of this progression towards greater complexity. But what I’m trying to get at is that the “rule book” which describes the valid vs non-valid statements that can be written in all variations of genetic code appears to me to be a much larger, more complex rule book than the rule book for organic chemistry, etc.

And the thing that I’m trying to describe isn’t any one particular stage of this process - it’s the entire process itself - how the interplay of available atoms and forces continues to create greater stages of complexity - which then makes new ingredients, new interactions, and new forces available - which then generate new stages of complexity.

The way I see it - this additional complexity cannot be adequately explained as simply the motion of atoms - you have to bring all of these other, more complex “rule books” to adequately describe what is going on. It seems to me that the phenomena these rule books try to explain continue getting larger and more complex, and that this entire process has the capacity to continue generating new emergent properties and greater complexity in ways that may potentially be infinite. That’s what I’m trying to communicate.

[Napster]

Dood sounds like a nut if he got naked the first time he tripped with another dood in a tub and chanted “no rules” (Syd thing i read)

[wind_water]

Haha well… he definitely was a causality in the acid wars, but maybe of homophobia too.

[Napster]

He “died” so that others may live.
Forgive me for assuming the excess that i perceive he undertook.
I’m simply stating I’m no rock star.
I don’t do things to excess.
I feel like this is a task that should be undertaken and understood while the utmost respect and admiration be given. This isn’t a joy ride. This is seeing the world with new eyes. And if people find themselves abusing the experience they have some real problems they are escaping from.
It’s not the beer that caused a man to drink but his life circumstances. A beer now and again is fine but tons of them will kill you.
Everything in moderation
Even moderation

[wind_water]

I completely agree. Best approached with the same respect as one would give a traditional peyote ceremony. It’s encounters with power.

[Napster]

Indeed and power can corrupt

[wind_water]

Stories and world views can be a really good thing. If you deconstruct your boat in the middle of the ocean, you’d better be a damn good swimmer.

[Napster]

Eaten by sharks

[wind_water]

baby shark doo doo de doo de doo…

[wind_water]

I think we’ve run out of meaningful moves on this thread, and are just filling in dame.

[tonybe]

For what it’s worth - this was one of the more “mind-manifesting” threads on OGS forums - for me anyway! wheeee!

[Napster]

I aim to please, I looked at all my posts and I was like damn last time i posted on this subject it caught fire lolz