What non-Go book are you reading right now?

He goes into the famous experiments which establish the limited ways in which language indeed has a small influence on how we think, so I don’t think he’s arguing against a strawman. There are other ways he could strawman, of course, this is just the first example I thought of of how he doesn’t

Tolkien wrote a dramatic piece of fiction, and it didn’t stop him from knocking it out of the park with his conlangs

Is that the one where he says you shouldn’t use long words? I’ll have to reread it, but if I’m thinking of the right one, I disagree with it over that

EDIT: one paragraph in and it’s looking good; maybe I was thinking of a different article

EDIT: the second paragraph is making me worried, though. It seems to presage some form of Whorfianism as well as a lot of prescriptivism, but we’ll see

EDIT: a whole lot of prescriptivism, as it turns out. see my below post for details

For the record, nothing in the Ants summary above convinced me that it entailed suspending your disbelief into accepting the strong form of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis: from the description, while the strong form of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis could explain why the ants act like they do, it could also be that the ants naturally act and think that way, and that causes their language to be so simple, which is quite like real life, albeit taken to an extreme: if we don’t see the importance of a concept, we won’t bother talking about it, but if we do, we come up with ways to do so

At its core, that’s how you do satire: don’t contradict real life, exaggerate it

It’s only the review’s belief about the message which I can’t see how to escape the Whorfian frame with it

I am not, indeed, sure whether it is not true to say that the Milton who once seemed not unlike a seventeenth-century Shelley had not become, out of an experience ever more bitter in each year, more alien (sic) to the founder of that Jesuit sect which nothing could induce him to tolerate.

— Professor Harold Laski (Essay in Freedom of Expression)

I think Orwell is going to go after the indirection here, but indirection is a normal way of hedging and being polite in many languages/cultures. Indeed, I would argue that while not to the extreme some cultures take it, around me in America indirection does indeed have an important place in establishing politeness: “Can you do X?” is more polite than “Please do X.”, because the second entails (even if true, it’s not polite to say it so directly) that the asker has the right to have the askee do X, whereas the first uses indirection to maintain a friendly atmosphere while still communicating what needs to be done

I admit that I had a bit of a hard time parsing this, but firstly it is out of context, in context the general flow of the text would suggest what sentiments to expect, and thus prime you to correctly interpret the double negations, and secondly, the author lived from 1893-1950, and in England, while I’ve lived from the late 1990s until now in America, which means that my struggle to understand more complex phrasing of his is not a knock on his phrasing, because surely some phrasings I understand without a second thought, would be equally hard for him to get

I assume it was Orwell who added the “(sic)”. If so, I don’t know why, “alien” seems to be being used in a perfectly normal way there: a way not unalien to modern English

Above all, we cannot play ducks and drakes with a native battery of idioms which prescribes egregious collocations of vocables as the Basic put up with for tolerate, or put at a loss for bewilder.

— Professor Lancelot Hogben (Interglossia)

I have enough respect for Orwell to believe he will acknowledge this, but even without the context, I can tell that this author is clearly satirizing what he is suggesting people not do. I don’t agree with his point (I’m sure if I had lived in Britain from 1895-1975, I would understand what the idiom “playing ducks and drakes” meant (as it is, I can still get the gist from context), but otherwise nothing in that paragraph is hard to understand for a skilled English speaker), but I quite like the satirical manner in which he made it

On the one side we have the free personality: by definition it is not neurotic, for it has neither conflict nor dream. Its desires, such as they are, are transparent, for they are just what institutional approval keeps in the forefront of consciousness; another institutional pattern would alter their number and intensity; there is little in them that is natural, irreducible, or culturally dangerous. But on the other side, the social bond itself is nothing but the mutual reflection of these self-secure integrities. Recall the definition of love. Is not this the very picture of a small academic? Where is there a place in this hall of mirrors for either personality or fraternity?

— Essay on psychology in Politics (New York)

Not being intimately familiar with a lot of psychological jargon, much less the specific way this author may be using the terms (which would require the context of the containing article to establish), this is halting (archaic sense) for me to read, but it’s not hard to get the gist if you slow down and make some reasonable assumptions (“neurotic” is probably similar to neuroticism in the Five Factor Model, “The Free Personality” is probably something which this article defined in more detail earlier, “integrities” is probably being used in the sense of “that which is integral to something”, “the definition of love” is probably a specific definition the article earlier gave)

I quite like the last two lines “Is not this the very picture of a small academic? Where is there a place in this hall of mirrors for either personality or fraternity?”: very poetic. Indeed, the whole paragraph seems very well written; the sort of thing which one, if they agreed with the essay, would find no shame in memorizing and reciting at relevant junctures of life, appreciated as it can be for its beauty alone

I think the takeaway here, surprise surprise, is that sometimes you need context to explicate something, which is not a bad thing whatsoever

All the ‘best people’ from the gentlemen’s clubs, and all the frantic Fascist captains, united in common hatred of Socialism and bestial horror at the rising tide of the mass revolutionary movement, have turned to acts of provocation, to foul incendiarism, to medieval legends of poisoned wells, to legalize their own destruction of proletarian organizations, and rouse the agitated petty-bourgeoise to chauvinistic fervor on behalf of the fight against the revolutionary way out of the crisis.

— Communist pamphlet

I very much disagree at just about every turn with what this quote says, but I see no great reason to dismiss it on account of some polemical phrasage. Much like the previous quote, it has a bit of a poetry to it

If a new spirit is to be infused into this old country, there is one thorny and contentious reform which must be tackled, and that is the humanization and galvanization of the B.B.C. Timidity here will bespeak canker and atrophy of the soul. The heart of Britain may be sound and of strong beat, for instance, but the British lion’s roar at present is like that of Bottom in Shakespeare’s A Midsummer Night’s Dream – as gentle as any sucking dove. A virile new Britain cannot continue indefinitely to be traduced in the eyes or rather ears, of the world by the effete languors of Langham Place, brazenly masquerading as ‘standard English’. When the Voice of Britain is heard at nine o’clock, better far and infinitely less ludicrous to hear aitches honestly dropped than the present priggish, inflated, inhibited, school-ma’amish arch braying of blameless bashful mewing maidens!

— Letter in Tribune

I think without cultural context, I will not be able to understand precisely what this is saying, but the gist seems to be the author’s dislike of certain dialects of British English, particularly one associated with Langham Place, which is characterized as “effete” and having “languors” (I assume effete is like fête, and languors sounds like languish, so its not hard to understand that an insult is being made without needing to know the exact meanings)

So it used some thesaurousy words, is that such a bad thing? I might never have had occasion to learn what “to traduce” meant had I not read this, and now my vocabulary is one word the better for it


The “dying metaphors” paragraph seems to at the last bemoan language change, which is fine if you want to do that, I guess, but you may as soon bemoan the tide’s flow

The “operators, or verbal false limbs” paragraph seems to but espouse an opinion of style comparable in questionablness to decrying long words when 10¢ words will do (according to whom? Ernest Hemingway who wrote Old Man and the Sea, one of the most boring books in existence due in no small part to its refusal to use any words longer than 3 syllables at the most?). Would he rob us of beauty and precision in language at the altar of mechanical simplicity? Overall in this paragraph, it seems Orwell is studiously ignoring the perfectly valid reasons one might wish to make use of a slightly more circumlocutionary tenor (note the subtle distinction between “use” and “make use of”. No doubt Orwell would dismiss the latter out of hand without giving due consideration to the shades of flavor which suggest it to the mind)

The “pretentious diction” paragraph starts out with an arguably fair point about over-sensationalization, but then takes it way too far. He decries loanwords (indeed, calling them “foreign words” as if to distance them in the mind of the reader from Language), while special pleading for his favorites: “ie”, “eg”, and “&c.”, and failing utterly to allow that in all the examples which I recognize as still being in use today, they (surprising nobody except, apparently, Orwell) fill a semantic niche in English and thus we indeed do not lack the real need for them. He characterizes the treatment of Latinate or Hellenic words as more sophisticated than Germanic words as the work of bad writers, and in so doing traduces the writers and speakers of English for the past 1000 years history since the Norman invasion when Norman French became the prestige language and introduced so many of the register distinctions which make English so vibrant and textured today. Then he fits in a final (sasuga unsubstantiated) jab at productive affixes, of all things

(did you see I worked my new word “to traduce” in there?)

The “meaningless words” paragraph starts out with a rant which can only be described as failing utterly to grok the qualitative ephemera which we long to describe but cannot capture but the shadow of, seeing as we do now in part. He takes a short break to make a perfectly valid point that one can lie with language, but then proceeds to attack polysemy (what manner of English will be left after he is done?), but thankfully gets back to the perfectly true point (uncontroversial enough for the most smarmy politician) that one can use language to lie, dupe, and deceive


I am at this present juncture quite too bored to continue through this hit-piece on half of English style

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uh-huh? I’m confused about what you’re saying?

Well, @Conrad_Melville used the word conlangs and I didn’t know what that meant.
Since I expected that there would be more people who were unfamiliar with that word, I linked the meaning.

That’s all.

EDIT: aren’t we all going a bit off topic. This thread is about books we read.

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I don’t think so. The discussion has been about John McWhorter books and an article written by a famous author

“Conlangs” is not a part of my vocabulary, so I appreciated your link. If I have ever used that word, which I don’t remember, it must have been in response to someone else’s use of it.

I agree that this is in danger of going off topic, but since Samraku appears to have read McWhorter’s book, and did just read Orwell’s essay, it is not yet in the weeds, I think.

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I can confirm that it is one of several McWhorter books I have read

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Correct, @Samraku used the word CONLANGS (but I wrongly had the impression he was quoting you).

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I think it is more than a small influence, as current events demonstrate every day, but I do not think it is anywhere near determinative. For one thing, a person’s moral grounding has much more to do with how they think than any influence of language.

Tolkien’s fiction and Orwell’s fiction differ greatly in their purposes. The exaggerations of Newspeak were to drive home a point, which has been wildly successful. If he believed the extreme form of linguistic relativism, I think it is forgivable given the time in which he wrote and his real-life experiences that he drew upon for his work.

I don’t think there is anything wrong in prescriptive teaching, as long as it is not dogmatic. As commonly observed, one should know the rules before trying to break them. For example, Samuel Beckett is notoriously difficult, both conceptually and at the level of language. However, he was a serious writer, not a poseur, as can be seen in his outstanding, conventional short stories collected in More Pricks Than Kicks, or in his first novel, Murphy.

Orwell was born in 1903, not 1893, he spent 5 years as a policeman in Burma, and he fought in Spain on the side of the Communists.

Orwell probably added the sic because the writer meant “alienated from.”

Orwell’s essay is aimed more at exposing the techniques of propaganda than at trying to teach good writing. However, we would be much better off if people in government, academia, and media followed Orwell’s advice. I say this as someone who has plumbed the depths of modernism and often enjoyed it, and who has occasionally broken the rules on purpose. I am going to leave it here, as I think anything further would be off topic. You can have the last word if you wish.

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I finished my rereading of Michael Wood’s In Search of the Trojan War and was surprised by how much I remembered. I used to read a lot of archeology in my youth and now I would like to get back to that.

However, I have already begun Richard Brookhiser’s James Madison (2011), which I picked up at the library a few days ago. Madison is, I think, my favorite Founding Father, but I have never read a biography of him. This attracted me because it is comparatively short, not one of those exhaustive (and exhausting) biographies that try to tell you everything. It also seems to be very fluidly written.

I am also starting A. E. Van Vogt’s The World of Null-A for my SF book group. Van Vogt was my favorite SF author when I was a kid, and I read this when I was 11. I have been reluctant, however, to reread it in my maturity, as I fear it won’t hold up.

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About a year ago I mistakenly announced the death of Vernor Vinge :disappointed:

But now, sadly, it has happened.


Vernor Vinge, one of my favourite SF authors, has passed away.

Vinge’s future visions have an uncomfortable habit of seeming silly for a few decades after they’re written, only to suddenly become obvious and inevitable.


https://edoras.sdsu.edu/~vinge/misc/singularity.html

                  The Coming Technological Singularity: 
                  How to Survive in the Post-Human Era

                            Vernor Vinge
                  Department of Mathematical Sciences
                     San Diego State University

                       (c) 1993 by Vernor Vinge
                                 […]   

                This article was for the VISION-21 Symposium
                   sponsored by NASA Lewis Research Center 
            and the Ohio Aerospace Institute, March 30-31, 1993.
           It is also retrievable from the NASA technical reports
                     server as part of NASA CP-10129.
                A slightly changed version appeared in the
                Winter 1993 issue of _Whole Earth Review_.
                         

                                  Abstract

               Within thirty years, we will have the technological
          means to create superhuman intelligence. Shortly after,
          the human era will be ended.

               Is such progress avoidable? If not to be avoided, can
          events be guided so that we may survive?  These questions
          are investigated. Some possible answers (and some further
          dangers) are presented.

Now we are in year 31 after he wrote that.

See also:

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Finished work early today, so I had the opportunity to visit my favourite indie bookshop and without any author or title in my mind, walk around and just wait in anticipation until a book would find me. Let serendipity do its work and be happy with what book I would cycle home.

It could very well have been Erasmus’s Lof der Zotheid (The praise of Folly), but I decided on Simon Sebag Montefiore’s The world. A Family History of Humanity.
Just some light reading before going to sleep I guess :smile:

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I’ve been reading John A. MacDonald: The Young Politician by Donald Creighton. I read this back in the seventies as part of a course in Canadian history, and I found it dull as dirt. When you’re young and pursuing a so-called higher education, it’s easy to feel overwhelmed by the volume of material coming at you, and it can quickly feel like something you must simply endure and get through. It didn’t help any that I had only the most rudimentary grasp of history in the first place and couldn’t appreciate things in their fullest context. Fortunately I’m finding it a lot more engaging this time around.

MacDonald was Canada’s first prime minister and the main guiding force behind a series of conferences that eventually united upper and lower Canada with Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. It was a time of intense anxiety in British North America. A civil war was raging to the south. The preceding decades had been marked by armed rebellion, first in Quebec, then in Upper Canada. This was followed by cross-border skirmishes involving American expansionists; Confederate soldiers using Canadian territory as a staging ground for an attack on St. Albans in Vermont, and finally by members of the notorious Fenian movement. This last incident occurred even as the relevant parties were in the final stages of crafting the Confederation agreement. Security, greater strength in numbers, continued ties to Great Britain— all had acquired a sense of urgency.

Arriving at this agreement was, of course, easier said than done. There were bitter and long-standing divisions to overcome. English versus French. Protestant versus Catholic. Monarchists versus U.S. annexationists. Old money interests versus an emerging middle class. Government was perpetually unstable. MacDonald displayed extraordinary patience through it all. Outwardly he had seemed almost nonchalant, yet he had repeatedly expressed a desire to get away from politics. And there was much more to come.

I found this book strangely comforting. On the one hand it seems that political discourse was no less acrimonious and spiteful then than today ( well, maybe with one or two notable exceptions) and yet even the most implacable enemies have been known to somehow find that crucial middle ground. People can and do muddle their way through, which is good to know since we’re going to need a great deal more of that in the days ahead.

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As an in-between-book I just started reading Charles Dickens’ Oliver Twist.
I read this about half a century ago in a dutch translation. And although that translation was good (I think it was done by one of our leading writers: Simon Carmiggelt), reading it in English is undeniably so much better.

Let me share a jewel with you,I found on page 1 and 2:

The fact is, that there was considerable difficulty in inducting Oliver to take upon himself the office of respiration - a troublesome practice, but one which custom has rendered necessary to our easy existence, - and for some time he lay gasping on a little flock mattress, rather unequally poised between this world and the next, the balance being decidedly in favour of the latter. Now, if during this brief period Oliver had been surrounded by careful grandmothers, anxious aunts, experienced nurses, and doctors of profound wisdom, he would most inevitably and indubitably have been killed in no time."

Edit: Not Simon Carmiggelt but Godfried Bomans translated Dickens into Dutch in the fifties.

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I finished Richard Brookhiser’s James Madison (2011), which was a satisfying, fairly short biography. I found especially interesting that Madison was most effective in working behind the scenes to build coalitions on several occasions. Now I feel like reading the longer biography that I have on hand.

My rereading of A. E. Van Vogt’s The World of Null-A was, alas, a great disappointment, as I expected. It just confirms what I have always been told: don’t go back to the thrilling SF read in one’s youth, unless the story is an acknowledged classic. The writing is often bad, the characters are flat, and the philosophy embodied in the title is just hand-waving. The few people in our book group who liked it were attracted by the fast-paced narrative and the proliferation of ideas in the story.

As a palate cleanser, I have started another of John D. MacDonald’s splendid Travis McGee novels, The Empty Copper Sea.

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That’s awful. I was looking forward to hearing his thoughts in the next few years as AI creeps into our society.

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As described in another thread, I recently acquired Robert Fitzgerald’s translation of The Iliad. This was very exciting, because I’m a huge fan of Fitzgerald’s translations of The Odyssey and The Aeneid, and for several years now I have wanted to reread The Iliad. I first read it as a teen, around age 14 I think, in the Richmond Lattimore translation. But in those days, I knew comparatively little about mythology, folklore, and ancient history.

I’m leaving on a road trip tomorrow, so this is the perfect time to undertake a project I have in mind. I’m going to read three translations side-by-side: Fitzgerald, Lattimore, and one by a scholar-poet who was my father’s best friend. Since I won’t be on OGS at all during my trip, this project will keep me occupied, without distractions, in the long evenings.

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Shogi book

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