What's so bad about mirror go?

No, we don’t.
You can struggle all you like to put this “you don’t like it” in my mouth, but it won’t happen.

I have made it abundantly clear that mirror Go has objective issues, unique to that strategy alone and “liking it or not” has nothing to do with what I am writing.

I never said that I disliked it and and I clearly stated that I voted “5” in the poll.

You are so set on ignoring that and pretending that I haven’t written it that it is starting to become funny. :slight_smile:

I am selectively stubborn you see.
I will gladly give you free points in a ranked game if you play mirror Go against me, but this?
Naaaah…

Mirror Go and resigning are both allowed by the rules, so there was never really any disagreement about them being “acceptable” or not.
At least get that correctly after 100+ posts. :stuck_out_tongue:

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How does one write so many posts, and be understood by so few :thinking: surely must be those other people.

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I still don’t understand what @JethOrensin thinks either.

  1. Do you think that mirror go is objectively uninteresting?
  2. Or do you think that it’s uninteresting for you (but you are not saying that it must be uninteresting for everyone else)?

If the answer to 2 is yes, then what is the difference with the statement “you don’t like it”?

If the answer to 2 is no, then why would you resign after 20-30 moves?

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Easy. In politics it is known as the tyranny of the majority, and it has led to things like witch burning.

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Yes, I open 4-4 5-4 and if someone else does the same, that’s rare enough that I’d call it a mirror strategy.

But actually, does their intent matter? If I enjoy that opening and it’s also mirror-proof, why not plan to play it?

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Probably my fault, no doubt about it. :slight_smile: There is also probably a language gap in the word “engagement”. Not my first language, maybe another word would have been better? I am open to suggestions on that.

In this case though what is left is not a misunderstanding, because I clearly tried to solve that.

They clearly do not like the “unique and objective issues” part of the strategy they are fan-boying about. That’s all there is to it. :wink:

Proof of this is the fact that from all the people that posted not-in-favour of mirror Go, I am the only one getting… well… “engaged” ( :stuck_out_tongue: ), while other people that have actively dunked on mirror Go and actually wrote (here and elsewhere) that mirror Go is “boring, lazy, trolling” and that they’d even block the opponent etc, are getting a pass. I wrote none of that, but they are fervently trying to pin those things on me, as well.

You see they can just dismiss all that stuff as “other people’s opinion/preference”, but they cannot stomach the “unique and objective issues” part because there is no getting out of that without doing some actual work.

No, not at all. Which is why I would not resign if someone told me in an unranked game for fun/experimentation “hey, I want to try this”.
That’s the polite thing to do and that’s what I mostly did when trying the SideSeki. I even gave the opponent in the chat the link to the thread so that they could look at all the ideas and feedback there :slight_smile:

In one case someone said “you know I am not into the mood for the experimental fuseki this time. Can you play normally?” and so I scrapped the Sideseki and played a normal fuseki (my usual flailing, that is, but let’s call it fuseki hahaah). Again, the polite thing to do.

In a ranked game the issue of something being interesting or not, is immaterial. Since the game is ranked, it is automatically obvious that winning points is now a higher priority than all the other ones, else you would have been playing an unranked game.

In a ranked game, where points are at stake and are the primary goal, I’d resign if someone played mirror Go. We are both there to play our best and win and their strategy is mirror Go? Then, to me, they want the points desperately. That’s how I interpret their choice, given that there is no other chat/communication (see earlier discussions here). So, I’ll wait 20-30 moves, make sure that it is mirroring and then fine, let them have the points. The reasoning is simple:

Outsourcing your moves to the opponent is saying that “I am not playing in the first moves”.
The opponent standing up and resigning is saying “well, I am not playing the rest of them either”.

That’s all. You want the points so much so as to do that. Fine, take them. :slight_smile:
They are my points. I can do what I like with them.
Resigning is in the rules.
Mirror Go is in the rules.
I get to do what I think is correct. The opponent gets the points, everyone is happy… well except for a couple of people here :stuck_out_tongue:

So, no to that too.
It is an interesting idea (I like weird experiments - I have no problems with those, obviously), with some very obvious unique and objective issues.

Just like the sideseki has its own obvious objective flaws. Every strategy has those.
The difference is that in the Sideseki or the Great wall or whatever else, you are just losing points/influence here and there.
In the mirror Go, you have the added flaw of losing in the engagement with the opponent. No other fuseki does that, because no other fuseki mirrors the moves of the opponent.

Nothing really controversial about it, really.

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I disagree with this. I play ranked games because

  • I want my opponent to do his best. I’ve played unranked games in which the player escaped the game in the middle, or didn’t play seriously at the end, etc.
  • I get an extra motivation to play my best as well. But this is not my primary goal. My main goal is to play an interesting game.
  • Rated games allow to measure my progress (or rather lack thereof). If my opponent artificially resigns at move 30, my rating gets inflated, ceases to be an adequate measure of my strength and this is not what I wanted.

I disagree with that too (i.e. with “desperately”). They might want to mirror for about 30 moves in order to get in an unusual, yet relatively balanced, board situation at the opening, so that they have more fun between moves 30 and 240. Go is a long game, and is very rarely decided at move 30, most of the fun appears after in general.

Are you saying that you would find interesting to play it, but not interesting enough compared to other ways of playing?
In other words you don’t dislike mirror opening but like other openings more?

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One game getting won like that won’t really dillute someone’s ranking. I think I’ve won a couple of games by timeout, is my ranking artificially inflated?

I cannot say no to that :slight_smile: They might indeed.
But as we said earlier, every interpretation is valid, since there is no actual feedback.
Again I am not proposing that other people think what I think or do what I do. The topic asked for our opinion on the matter (“what’s so bad about it?”) and that’s how I view it.
Other people might have other interpretetions, reactions or be reticent to give free points or whatever else… as long as it is rule legal, everything is fine :slight_smile:

No, I have no opinion on that. What is interesting is highly subjective. I haven’t tried all other potential fusekis, so I cannot make any such comparisons.

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In that case, tell your opponent you are going to play mirror go. This can be done in the game name and/or the chat.

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I have played mirror Go in the past, and probably ranked as well. I can assure you I’m not interested in the points. I’m interested in playing a game, not in my rank.

That’s again why your “kindness” of giving the points seems rude to me. It seems you can’t place yourself in the shoes of someone who plays mirror Go for strategical reasons.


I mean you can say what you want, but if the stuff in between the lines keeps telling the old story, not much changes.

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That’s not my point. My point was that if I play rated games, one of my main goals about rating points is that my rating reflects my performance. Getting the points (like getting “cash”) is not my goal.

If “they might indeed” then when you say

your assumption is not necessarily true (in the game you are playing).

Then if you really have “no opinion” I fail to understand why you would resign after 20-30 moves. This seems contradictory. I give up.

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I understand your viewpoint.
I’ve held doors open for people carrying stuff and instead of a nod, they actually told me angrily that “I didn’t need your help”.

It is a valid viewpoint. However, I am not going to stop opening doors for people carrying stuff though, because I am not a mindreader.
If I see someone carrying stuff and I remember that they do not like being helped, I will respect their wish and not help them, but other than that I’ll do what I think is correct (and legal, of course) and if other people do not like it, hey, it happens. You cannot please everyone :slight_smile:

I will. Have a nice afternoon! :saluting_face:

I never claimed that it was. Again, every interpretation is valid, unless the opponent communicates otherwise.

You asked me to compare mirror Go with all the “other ways of playing” in terms of it being more or less interesting than them.
I trully have no opinion on that. How could I?

As I said the above two statements look contradictory to me.

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But I never said that I’d resign a ranked game because mirror Go is “uninteresting”. :thinking:

This is the rationale for the ranked resignation:

Nothing in there about mirror Go being “interesting” or not. “Likeable” or not. “enjoyable” or not.
None of that matter to me, personally, in this decision.

They want the win so badly? They can have it. Simple as that.

If they message me and say “look, I want to try this in a ranked game and see if I can win with this, can you do your best?”
Then I’ll do the polite thing and stay and play and do my best. It is a ranked game, I was planning to do that anyway.
If not and they stay silent, then I have no data and then I can do what I think is correct/polite/nice/call it whatever else.

No, not at all.
Its just when I thought about a counter strategy, I more thought about something for when you play ‘the usual stuff’ and it becomes obvious that the opponent plays the mirror.
When I saw your strategy I thought about it more as a “unflexible”, complete prevention. Do I make sense?

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Weird. I wouldn’t care so much about pleasing an anonymous opponent. My main goal when playing on a go server is to have an interesting game for myself, not to please my opponent.

Would you do so even if your opponent plays as white? (As black you can break the mirror as soon as you want).

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I think “engagement” is an excellent term. Although it has been interpreted repeatedly as referring to mentation, you clearly meant it only in an objective sense, based on what is seen on the board. My preferred term in the past, when referring to trolling in general, has been to call it a failure to play “earnestly,” which has an explicitly subjective quality. I will come back to this in a moment.

It’s amazing and discouraging how repetitive and useless this thread is. We have arguments based on threats, based on consequences, based on schoolyard taunts (you’re a coward for not playing mirror go), based on misapplication, and involving avoidance (the modern disease of argument; I don’t think anyone has addressed Jeth’s excellent observation that mirror go is uniquely “disliked,” if I may use that word for convenience).

The worst of these, for volume, is misapplication. Hence, arguments based on pro play, dan play, and strong SDK play have been expressed as universal truths, as if they have meaning for most weak SDKs and (especially) DDKs. Let’s be honest. Almost all DDKs who play mirror go are not engaged in a sophisticated strategy, calculating when to pounce to break the mirror for advantage. They are simply playing a trick opening to unsettle their opponent, or in some cases merely experimenting with it to satisfy curiosity. Failure to recognize this might be attributed to dishonest argumentation, but I prefer to think that it is due to a blinkered viewpoint—self-delusion due to tunnel vision (to use a more modern term),

At the weaker levels, the honest comparison is with trolling. For example, we don’t like trolls who play the 1-line fuseki. It’s not against the rules, but if they keep it up, they will eventually be banned. The reason is that they are not playing earnestly, as I would say, or not honestly engaging in go.

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I tried to figure out if that’s what he meant… and he said he didn’t dislike mirror go (?)

I agree about that point, however I was responding to Jeth who is 2k.

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I would not be doing it for them. Following your own values/ideas is primarily something done that is for your own sake/satisfaction. If it happens to benefit someone else or not (like the helping people at a door example), is irrelevant.

I run my life on a “do the things that help you sleep at night” algorithm :stuck_out_tongue:

Besides, I profit as well. They get the points fast and easy, I get the time to play another game, hopefully with an opponent that will engage in the game from move one so we can both immediately “try our best” and give me a run for my money (a walk in those “unknown fields” as someone poetically put it).
Time is important.

I don’t know for sure. White could play tengen first move and then mirror all my other subsequent moves. It is also an idea that might be good, who knows? :thinking:

It is kinda fun, though, for all those reasons, if you know how to spot them :wink:
Quite a nice recounting.

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His observation was not a personal one, so that point is irrelevant. Many weaker players are quite ready to play weird fusekis as he noted, but they (not he) dislike mirror go. Why is mirror go singled out that way? The explanation is what Jeth said at the beginning, it is the lack of engagement (or, as I would say, earnest play).

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