Why don't people fill dame in area scoring?

I don’t know about a general answer, but in the example provided, if black had filled the last dame, white would have won by 0.5 instead of 1.5. Maybe black just didn’t care about which margin they lost by?

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Even among Go players, few actually care about the finer points on which rules differ. Even among those who do care, many will forget about that from time to time. Even among those who do not forget, some are sometimes unaware that they are indeed playing under Chinese/NZ rules. Even among those who are always aware, there are a few who do not care. Luckily, if this upsets you, you can remind your opponents at the beginning of the game if you like.

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“…some are sometimes unaware that they are indeed playing under Chinese/NZ rules.”

I think this is the usual reason for what Yujiri describes. You don’t see the ruleset unless you look in the side menu (and I’m not sure that’s even visible on the mobile site). Japanese rules is most common on OGS so doubtless a lot of people just assume it.

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I thought Sarah_Lisa’s argument is the most common one. Why keep filling dame when the outcome is decided?

If the outcome is already known then one player should resign, no?

I wish.

Well if it is close and endgame is almost done, there’s not much reason to resign, is there?

Probably not in a live game, but in a correspondence game there’s every reason. Why keep your opponent locked into a predeteremined dance for days or weeks when the outcome is clear?

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I for one am a compulsive Dame filler, I always thought filling the neutral intersections at the end of the game was part of Go etiquette.

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Also filling dame can be tricky and slippery! :sweat_smile:

Or maybe this is an issue only for weaker player like me… :thinking:

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And then there’s also Te-ire which is often recognised only when the according Dame is played …

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I guess its important to be aware, then, that if you are doing this in correspondence, when you have clearly lost and don’t have a a plan to recover, there is an opponent at the other end whom you are driving mad. That is not good ettiquette.

I would hate to think my opponent was prolonging a lost game because they would think it rude to just do the right thing and resign to end the game!

This is different to where there is outstanding and required te-ire. In this case if you are filling dame aiming to take advantage of a weakness later, and this could change the outcome of the game … then the outcome of the game is not yet determined and of course you should play on… but only if you have a plausible plan.

Or so it seems to me.

(Personally I don’t feel the same about live - in live, where I can quickly follow your dame fill with mine and we complete it in a timely fashion that’s fine!)

Isn’it too much to say that the conclusion of the end-game can “drive mad” someone?

My opinion is that it’s always worth counting the final score, for every game, also when it’s clearly won or lost in advance.
One reason is that I like to know exactly how many point I was behind or ahead.
One other reason is that it’s happened to me to lose groups because of a supposed “dame” that was in fact an essential liberty. I was confident about my score and then found out it was wrong by 10 or 20 points.

When I think I have nothing more to do, that every single point is established, then I pass. Usually when I play online I leave some dame not filled. But if my opponent likes to fill them, I think it’s just the flow of the game. If he does, I always double check that spot for weaknesses that I could have underestimate. But mostly i think that this phase of the game, also in real life, is someway relaxing. A kind of “cool down” (I hope this is the right expression for soft gym after intense effort) that leads to final scoring.

Here probably I’m against japanese etiquette, but I don’t like games that end by resignation (so keep at hand that meme if you had to play with me :wink: ).

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I guess “drive mad” is hyperbole, but it conveys the sense.

If we’ve played a good game, and it’s clear what the outcome is, I want to move on to the next game. Especially if it’s a ladder game, where I have worked hard to defeat someone and am ready to move up. This ladder game going along at the slow 3 days per move filling dame could take weeks to conclude… all that while I have to wait to challenge people higher up, for what reason?

If I want to “cool down” I will go and play the guitar. If I want to play go, I’d like to be placing stones that affect the outcome, not colouring in the board…

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Oh, no worries, @GreenAsJade, most of the games I lose are games where I resigned :wink:

See http://vatcss.info/games/gotstats/?id=trohde#/user/52

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Nice one!

It looks like I practice what I preach, too :smiley: :smiley: :

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My personal experience is that when you reach the best step that you can on the ladder, it all lose sense and exitement. I went to the top 40 both in 9x9 and 13x13 site ladders and then felt like “now what?”

It may obviously be different for you, but my advice is not to rush to the top. The best part is the journey.

I fear I’ve gone too far off topic now. :slight_smile:

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Oh, I think we’re on topic - getting insight into why some people fill dame and others don’t.

Sounds like great advice. I don’t think I’m in danger of reaching the top any time soon :slight_smile:

I think it’s about the journey for me too - the striving and the learning.

I’m just not that keen on the part of the journey where the train is pulled into a siding waiting for someone to get off… :wink:

GaJ

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Resurrecting this topic:
I just finished a game https://online-go.com/game/11751861 under Chinese rules. I was losing by 0.5 points until my opponent passed before filling the last dame, so I won by 0.5 points. I can only assume my opponent simply didn’t know or understand what rules we were playing under? Felt like stealing a win in what had otherwise been a good game.

Somewhat related, I had almost the opposite in a game the other week under Japanese rules https://online-go.com/game/11371463. There was a final ko, but white didn’t need to play it and could have just passed to take a 0.5 point win. Under Chinese (or AGA) rules I think that the ko would have genuinely been for the game. Throughout the ko fight, white could have just passed to win the game, but kept playing and eventually I won by 0.5 points. I must say I didn’t feel so bad in that case because a 2 kyu really should know better.

In both cases, I already knew I should have lost, and so some would say I should have resigned, but I felt that playing out a 0.5 point loss is perfectly respectable. In neither case did I expect or really want to win, I just wanted the satisfaction of a good game reaching its conclusion.

Playing out a 0.5 or even 5 point loss is entirely reasonable. Many people would be challenged to count an unfinished game that accurately anyhow…