I am on PC and I do have “show replies” enabled. I was just confused because while I clearly see you responded to aesalon, what you actually stated seemed pertaining to me.
It’s funny, because I don’t see any connection there. I hadn’t even read your post when I wrote that. I pretty much agree with your post.
No, you see, the dilemma, as I see it, is the following:
X: “It’s personal preference, it’s all good. You want to play, you play, you don’t, you don’t.”
Y: “This can’t be right, there are 51% women in the population, there should be more women here!”
Z: “Male Go players prevent female would-be-Go-players from wanting to play!”
instead of:
X: “Want to play?”
Y: “Sure do.”
Z: “Can I join?”
Hahaha. I guess I didn’t fully understand the elements of your arguments (I did not read what you were saying as carefully as I should have). My apologies as I am sure that was quite awkward to have to explain to me.
Yes, this is precisely what went through my head upon reflecting on what I was going to say. I picked X, not because I know I am right, but rather because I fail to see much clear evidence towards Z.
Most of the babies I’ve met were too young for fatherhood IMO
Why do fewer women than men play go?
Because women are less likely to stumble upon AlphaGo and so they don’t even know about go.
Well, it’s just a guess and I’m not entirely serious, but it might hint towards a part of the explanation.
Could you do me quick favor and just unpack all of the assumptions that went into that statement?
What specific factors would make that less likely?
Mainly underrepresentation of women in IT/computer science.
For what it’s worth, I taught two classes to people studying artificial intelligence, both had a majority of female participants.
Would you say that this was a representative sample?
Well, apart from the students choosing to take the subject I was teaching (in both cases Logic), I’d say yes. In my university the proportion male : female in AI was pretty balanced. I think the same was true in my first uni as well, but that’d be just a guess (I only participated in a couple of courses and did not attend often).
The computer science class had only 4 female participants, and about 150 male. Mathematics was about 1/3 female, I’d say.
There have been a lot of efforts in the Netherlands to stimulate girls to choose a degree in STEM fields, maybe that explains some of the reason why it’s relatively high.
That’s surprising. I had one course about machine learning and the proportion there was more like:
Maybe this development just hasn’t reached go yet (assuming there’s a causality at all).
Also - I have zero computer science or IT background and I am fascinated by artificial intelligence in general and Alpha Go in particular. How do your assumptions account for me, the curious layperson? Does my being fascinated by AI as a layperson also depend on my gender? If so, how so?
No, it doesn’t depend on it, it just might be influenced by it. And likely such influence might be more indirect.
Just stopping by to say that the same question exists in chess, so probably people also debated the subject somewhere. A while ago, someone on another forum pointed to the following text written by a female chess player: Invisible Pieces: Women in Chess | Blog • lichess.org
Very few was said about the money and time factor. So before considering if women like more to do this or that, can’t we first ask ourself if women have a more limited access to go by economical constraints (free time/money to devote to it)?
Its actually pretty simple. Any sports/game/activity that is dominated by one gender is going to be sexist. Society likes to push males to do one set of activities and females to do another set of activities. And I have observed it to be true that males in general are more interested in competition while females are more interested in the social aspect of an activity. Also, a lot of my female friends dislike competition, I could never figure out why, but I’m guessing the different upbringing between boys and girls have something to do with it.
And we are back to the issue “where to find more players and how to attract them to the game” which even pros and the National Go organizations cannot seem to solve.
Ehm … if you do not know the correct data, then aren’t you bound to try to correct the wrong problem?
Max Planck was definitely correct then, but for now? I do not think that in the era of the internet and “influencers” this optimism can be trusted.
Most people nowadays choose their ideology/whatever, find an echo chamber that supports their own opinion even if it is totally unscientific or irrational (e.g. flat earth) and then they are set for life.
Back in previous eras without the internet, there was no such buffer. No safety net.
You either confronted the issues or you became the village jester.
Now people do not have to confront anything they do not like.
They just pack up, leave, and go where things are more pleasant to their ears.
So Planck WAS right. But if he is still right? That’s doubtful.
Human beings are wired to work and act on them though, so this is going to be an uphill battle.
Some stereotypes are also self-perperuating.
For example, I do not know what goes on in other countries, but here, among men, there is a stereotype “that you should NEVER trust a man that dyes his hair.” because, goes the idea behind the stereotype, “a man who is willing to blatantly lie in your face about that, can lie about anything without remorse.” and are derogatorily, and usually in their faces, called “hair-dyers”.
Does that stereotype exist because the original idea behind it is “true” (to whatever extend a stereotype can be true) or does it exist nowadays because noone wants to be called “hair-dyer” and the people that do try it are the exact shameless people that the stereotype warns us about?
Stereotyping is an oversimplification, by definition.
This sometimes makes us think that stereotypes themselves simple in their existence, but this is not so.
Good point which also slipped through the cracks.
Unless you are keen to reveal it yourself, there are no genders or orientations online, thus no discrimination.
If this whole topic is a minefield, this one is like playing a 1000x1000 minesweeper with only one open space.
There’s no problem if you’re a woman or LGBTQ+ online!!! Just hide it!!!
Hiding will not make the mysoginia vanishing.
Maybe but still essential. Has been proven by studies that
1 women earn less still today
2 The economic situation is predominant on the education (to use a word like a big bag).
A lot was said on global views and i find completly inconsistent to not start by the beginning.