Women in go

Well, no, she is not talking about how we will solve our particular problem. I’d be surprised if she knows what Go is, so she is not aware of it in particular, but it is still very interesting because the game she plays (poker) is already ahead of the curve in some very important regards.

a) we can always gleam good ideas from people who actually do what we want to do and begin from the same/similar (not equal hoho) starting point with us (isn’t that why we attend Go lessons after all? Or read books? Would you say that it is pointless to receive guidance from a pro because it is a “particular player that made it” and thus their success and guidance cannot be helpful in any way to you? I do not think that all those people that attend Go lectures would agree. :wink: ). It is not like she was super-rich or whatever so she is not relatable with any of us.
b) a positive role-model is always nice
c) we could all be inspired and get some ideas from poker or other games. We do not know all games and all communities, do we? If we see a good idea implemented somewhere else and it works, isn’t it good to consider it for our own game?

Anyway, those are a few of the uses I found for that interview. I could write more, but those are the most important, apart from the ones I mentioned earlier.
I do suggest you completely listen to it. Even if you do not find it as useful, it is at least interesting. :slight_smile:

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I did listen to most of the interview. She talked about her life in general, poker was one topic among many others, and she didn’t talk much about “being a woman in a male environment”. She did say at one point she was the only woman, only to explain just after that she had a common point with the other people (no social life and no boyfriend, hence no other place to go). The interview didn’t discuss the analogue question “why so few women play poker” and didn’t propose solutions other than “one woman did it, so other women can do it”.

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Has anyone mentioned Hitler yet? This thread is long enough.

Yeah, that’s where we come in though, as listeners.
We get some new information/feedback/inspiration and then we are supposed to think about those things and see what we can do on our end. :slight_smile:

I am sorry to say that the solution to the problem will not ever be brought about or be described exactly or in its entirety, thus any positive step or idea should be processed towards a better result.

Sorry you edited and I missed that.

I found that was a great point that you do not need to be 100% similar with other people to fit it … even one common point can be enough :wink:

Isn’t that a wonderful idea?

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So what? Does it mean that every woman who has that common point would necessarily feel welcome among poker players? What about women who have a social life, can they play poker?

Well, obviously not. Some might need more, others might need none at all.
It is all about getting to hear about a different perspective/idea in life and see if there is anything useful that can be applied to your case/life.

Maybe I am understanding the concept of inspiration and “role models” different as well, but as far as I know people are supposed to take some examples/behaviours/ideas from those other people and modify them to fit their own characters and for their own gains and situation.

I assume that the most common role model for most people would be their own parents, but noone ever becomes a carbon copy of their parents, do they? No. They see, observe, judge, adjust, form their own version/character trait from what they observed.
Sometimes what parents do is a positive role model (e.g. a Go player parent might inspire the child to play)
Or sometimes what parents do is a negative role model (e.g. a drunkard parent might inspire the child to never drink alcohol).

Anyway, if we want things to fit exactly on our selves, directly “plug and play” and working “out of the box”, we are not talking about practical life matters, but USB appliances :stuck_out_tongue:

In any case, I put it there as an inspiring example and mentioned what I got out of it regarding the topic.
Others mights find it more, less or not at all useful. That is a totally subjective matter :slight_smile:

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I am sorry to say it, but after all that has been said in this topic, posting this interview is borderline insulting for women. It’s like telling poor people “look, this guy is from a poor family and became rich, take him as a role model and stop whining, if you are still poor it’s your fault”. It’s ignoring all the hurdles that women may be facing.

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Yeah, and I am sorry to read this. In any case, if even female role models are “borderline insulting” then ok. I’ll add this to the things I’ve learned in this topic :slight_smile:

can we at least agree that poker seems to have a more inclusive system that we might get some inspiration from, or is that not good either?

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I don’t know anything about poker, so I can’t tell.

P.S. “female role models” are not insulting. But presenting a role model who didn’t talk about specific difficulties of women, in front of women who say they faced difficulties in life because of being a woman, is insulting.

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I mentioned it earlier, they do not seem to classify players based on sex:

There are of course some women’s tournaments because just like Go they want to promote the game and make it more inclusive, but in general there is no gender discrimination as I can tell. As long as you can pay the buy in, they are cool.

Her talking about being a young girl/woman walking into a poker gambling den full of scetchy men is not specific enough?
If not, my bad.

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PMs are a thing on here aren’t they?

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She took 5 seconds to say that in a 20-minute interview.

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Where there are people, there will be discrimination. Our role is to minimise it and the harm.

It may be that there is no “Official” discrimination in rules or ranking but that is virtually irrelevant to ingrained behavioral discrimination that makes some less welcome than others.

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Well that is true, but you have to start from the general rules at the very least. :slight_smile:
It is usually the most basic step to set in the rules that “we do not do that here”.
Whatever the rules might say, there will be people that will break them, be those rules for discrimination or rules for cheating or anything else.
However, it is important to set the tone and be firm that “this is what is acceptable and this is what is not” and year after year more people will be the ones that comply and less will be the ones inclined to break what is commonly acceptable by a group, a society or a player base.

That’s how usually rules and laws work and get to be accepted/integrated. Why should Go communities be any different?

I think empathizing is more about listening than talking.

Empathy, unlike sympathy, does not mean we agree with the other person or see things from the same point of view. Instead, it requires taking a moment to step outside of our normal patterns of thinking and feeling to imagine what it feels like to be the person in front of us.

“Most people experiencing distressing emotions and thoughts want an empathetic listener before being offered helpful options and resources.

The first way to diffuse a tense situation is to establish rapport with the person in distress. Listening quietly, without engaging in problem-solving, signals that you are on that person’s side. This simple gesture validates the other person’s experience.

(from https://www.mentalhealthfirstaid.org/2017/07/quiet-power-listening/)

It may seem counter-intuitive, but leaping to problem-solving actually undermines the empathic listening process.

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Okay, I have definitely not read the entire thread, but I would like to add some positivity in here, from personal experience. I myself am not a woman, what I can share is my experience in both the local go group and chess club, as those differ in very interesting ways.

The go group consists of about 10 people, where usually around half of the attendees are female. It is a small university group that came into existance by a bunch of people, who had no idea what go is, but found the news about AlphaGo interesting and wanted to check out the game.
The chess club, on the other hand, has existed for many decades, has regular meet-ups, a few teams competing in local leagues, and has most notably not a single female member.

Now I know that mentioning chess in go communities is often frowned upon, and vice versa, but for the sake of the observation, I would assume that both games are sufficiently similar, as that either one wouldn’t be more appealing to a certain gender than the other.

My observation has been, that whenever someone new joins the go group, regardless of their gender they usually fit in with the social dynamics of the group. It has happened that people sometimes do not fit in, of either gender, which, as far as my observation goes, has been due to them wanting to check out this game they have heard so much about, but eventually not finding it interesting.

In the chess club, however, there has once been a woman who came to the club meetings, with interest of joining the club. She was already quite a strong player, so there was no boundary in the sense of spiking her interest. I perceived her attendance as very discomforting for most other members. Usual non-chess topics, that would be discussed in a male-only gathering would be the arguments one member has had with their ex-wife, how nice it is that a nice attractive young woman started working at the grocery store in the street of another member, and in general which traits in women are determined attractive.

I wouldn’t deem any of the chess club members as sexist. I know that some of them actively support programs for women in chess, and they actively try to include games from female professionals when analyzing pro games at meetings. It seems to be the general atmosphere that comes up with an overwhelmingly male majority, concerning off-topic, small-talk discussions, that is hostile towards women.

What I would conclude, humbly, is that even in the complete absence of sexist intentions by anyone, the social barrier to pick up go is just stronger for women than for men. I don’t come with a solution readily available, but given how meaningless gender seems to become, when all are present, I want to claim that actively creating comfortable spaces for women in go, i.e. meetups, where other active female players are present, might come a long way. After all, I probably also wouldn’t have started out playing, if it weren’t for my friends, with whom I had a good time discovering this game.

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I am eight minutes in and there is nothing at all about it. If you have nothing to say, respectfully - please don’t waste my time.

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