Yet another ratings thread

I agree that with a handicap for black, white gets more points for a win and loses less on a loss.

However if you insist on putting both terms in the denominator, then the term should be factored with the probability of each option occurring.

Extreme example:

  • black 20k with one handicap
  • white 9 dan.

The rating change of the 20k winning this game practically never happens. Why would the rating difference of that situation count at full force for the average?

Can you share this calculation where it ends up as not the same or not exactly double?

Isn’t the main question just whether predicted win rates by the rating system are actually good predictors in handicap games?

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I am just thinking that since I’ve done statistics for pro games, and we have datadump of OGS games, we can test this theory of uneven rating balance, by measuring the black/white winrate of different players and find those players more inbalanced with their black/white winrate and see how much their ratings actually changed over the past couple of years, do players actually good playing as black or white got the exact opposite effects in their rating change over long period of time?

Maybe interesting, though the basic rating updates should handle a players colour imbalance in strength. As long as players play about the same number of games with either colour you can think of them as having two ratings (White/Black). If those are different but with similar number of games, then their combined rating will settle between them.

At chess I used to have a much higher Black win rate than White, though that had a bit to do my regular pool of opponents.

Restating things in terms of win rates, maybe this makes it more obvious again. Put simply we are suggested to understand that 1 handicap makes the game even between 1 rank separated players. That’s an expected win rate for a game against a player of the same rank. Handicap adjustment only reduces the rank difference to 0.46 however saying White’s win rate at 1 handicap should be greater than about 50%.

Handicap 1 on OGS means 0.5 komi and is not supposed to make the game even. Komi is worth half a stone, not a full one.

If komi was worth a full stone, it would be as if white had the advantage of the first move and black would be at a disadvantage.

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TL;DR: OGS implements handicap 1 as no extra stone, with 0.5 komi because that is tradition. That gives black about 6 points extra, which is less than the 12/14 points actually needed to bridge the rank gap. Therefore it is not expected that handicap 1 to fully bridge one rank-gap. OGS-glicko2 appears to handle this correctly.


OGS implements handicap 1 as: no extra stone, with 0.5 komi. That is not arbitrary, it follows the traditional Go convention. The confusing part is that this is often still called “one stone handicap”, even though no extra stone is actually placed. Here is an external source, where you see that Handicap 1 is called “1 stone”. It doesn’t provide an extra stone, just no komi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handicapping_in_Go

So two things are true at the same time:

  • An actual extra handicap stone is understood/meant as compensating roughly one rank of strength.

  • The first “handicap stone” is not an actual extra stone. It is basically Black’s normal first move, combined with reduced komi, usually 0.5 to avoid draws.

As Shinuito, JonKo, I, and possibly others have already pointed out in this thread: if an actual extra stone is valued at roughly 12–14 points, then reducing komi by about 6 points cannot also be worth a full stone/rank. Six is simply less than twelve.

So yes, by this logic, the Handicap 1: 0.5 komi does not bridge the gap of one rank strength, it bridges roughly half of it.

If you have the expectation that it should, then that expectation is totally understandable, because it is often taught that in Go, ranks can be bridged by handicap. And the naming seems to confirm it. But it is not mathematically supported because black isn’t given the twelve to fourteen points necessary to make it true. It holds for the later actual handicap stones, but not for the first non-stone.

This is also why OGS-Glicko2 still expects white to win more than 50% in a handicap 1 game aginst black. It recognises that black is still weaker than white.

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Ok, that’s the tradition, but it’s pretty easy to demonstrate 1 handicap is 1 rank.

Take a 1 handicap game, this typically equates to a rank difference in the range [1, 2), meaning 1 rank is the minimum difference. Now adjust both the players ranks (really meaning their Glicko2 ratings) and the handicap so that the game becomes even. The result is you adjusted the players ranks by at least 1 (so the ratings predict a roughly 50-50 game) and gave komi to White. So, komi is worth at least 1 rank.

Maybe the handicap compensation should be adjusted so 1 handicap rank adjustments lands at the mid-point of the range [1, 2), 2 handicap rank adjustments lands at the mid-point of the range [2, 3), and so on in terms of the advantage it gives (which appears to be the meaning of the tradition to me). Historically ranks are whole numbers but on OGS it’s become a continuous scale.

The desired system is this: If you let the weaker player play as black, give them one additional stone to start with and by doing so the win chance becomes 50-50, then the rank difference of those players is 1.

In an even game white has 6-7 komi and black has the right to place the first stone. To give black one additional stone, black starts with placing two stones instead of one, and white still has 6-7 komi.

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Guess you could apply komi/no komi handicap ranks between each added stone. My basic contention that 1 handicap is expected to even the game at 1 rank difference is already there in your first sentence. I think the handicap rank adjustment could be corrected to add 0.5 rank adjustment for any handicap to the existing 0.46 or 0.54. That would bring the ratings to about 50/50 expectation.

I’m not sure what you mean exactly, so I want to ask some clarifying questions

In my post I detailed why it’s understandable you could think “handicap 1” means “equal win chance” for both black 10k and white 9k. However I then stated that that is not the case, because white is still expected, in both the real world and OGS-glicko-ratings, to win more than 50%.

edit: actually JonKo said that before me, I did not see that.

Do you agree or disagree with that?

If you really want equal win chances, you need to give black a real stone extra, like JonKo said. Black 10k with an extra stone vs white 9k with Komi 6.5 will be roughly 50/50.

Do you agree or disagree with that idea?

Just want to leave the stone handicap system used on IGS/pandanet here

And historically, one stone equals to two ranks, hence why we had the term “半先” (half of the first move), and it was around the early 20th century when amateur Go community began to form, where the proposals were made to double the rank differences. And you need to realize that the 1-rank difference for amateur (or 2 ranks difference for dans at the time), were not about even games between the two players, in order to be one stone stronger, you need to be consistently beaten the opponent when they played black, hence it was effetely like playing with “reverse komi” (as in the IGS/pandanet ranking) and have even game. When you play with no komi, and still win 50/50 as white, you were just “half a first move” strong.(because it was not possible to plays hundreds or thousands of games between many players, they had to use this type of “beating consistently” from a limit series of games method over a long period of time as a measurement, they need to be sure that the strength gap was enough)

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The suggestion that 1 rank = 1 stone handicap comes directly from how many handicap stones are awarded for a rank difference in a potentially handicap game.

With a rank difference in the range of [1, 2) ranks players play 1 handicap so arguably handicap rating adjustments should target the mid point of that, or 1.5 ranks for 1 handicap. But minimally it should reach almost 1 rank compensation (add 0.5 to existing formula in any handicap game) when you expect win rates to become even.

Above was a reply,

“The desired system is this: If you let the weaker player play as black, give them one additional stone to start with and by doing so the win chance becomes 50-50, then the rank difference of those players is 1.” -Jon_Ko

“My basic contention that 1 handicap is expected to even the game at 1 rank difference is already there in your first sentence.”

While we are on this subject, i played someone who dropped from 1k to 10k in ONE game over the duration of ONE week, and now beating eveyone in 4-5k’s, of course affecting their rating.

Antoon

I have reported this to the admin for over 2 weeks and no one answers me.

Someone please take a look how this happenned and see if any adjustment is needed.


It looks like it was over the course of many games

Edit:
Did you have it set to the other graph?

If you set the filter to “bot games” you’ll see he plays tons of bot games

Bot games are now unranked for everyone so this can not happen again. Either way, seems nothing wrong here but the correct way to report someone is by clicking their name and clicking the report button. The best way to follow up is to contact a moderator directly.

i did

and after games with bots were annulled, shouldn’t his ranking goes back up as if they haven’t been played? because i was told it should (by some other guy in another post, of course he could be wrong)

I don’t think prior games with bots have all been annulled. But from now on it’s only one game per player per day that can be ranked.

Games that are annulled will look like this in the player history:
image
They’ll be greyed out with a line through them.

On the actual game page you’ll see this:
image

If you look at the history for the player in question you’ll see the games are not annulled.

OK thx.

Why is that tradition? It seems to me black should get komi in that scenario? Is it just inertia?

I’ve always been confused about the 1 “stone” handicap.