2021 thoughts (since nobody made one)

QAnon is obviously a goofball cult. Its distinctive appeal is to feed revenge fantasies (that is also an appeal of various ideological movements, but I want to stay focused here). It uses a great many known psychological tactics to inculcate a feeling of personal participation and insider knowledge about its conspiracy theory. This goes beyond most cults because the Q followers feel empowered as actual active members of an elite revolutionary cadre.

My comments are based on personal knowledge of a Q follower, miscellaneous news reports, some casual internet research, and, most of all, on more than 50 years of reading and desultory contacts with various cultists (for example, I was once assaulted by aggressive scientologists who were handing out literature on upper Connecticut Ave in Washington, D.C.). My academic interest in conspiracy theory arose from an even deeper interest in mass hysteria events. The two share a lot of characteristics; one could say that conspiracy theories are slow-motion mass hysteria.

The government and the pubic alike generally have a very poor understanding of the causes and dynamics of conspiracy theories (CTs). My touchstone has long been an observation made by G.K. Chesterton more than 100 years ago: Those who begin by believing in nothing, often end up believing in everything (my paraphrase from memory). The best single source to begin building an understanding of the subject (and more broadly about all mass movements) is Eric Hoffer’s seminal work, The True Believer.

The QAnon narrative, like many post-modern CTs, only more so, tries to be all-encompassing. It is to CT what the “Theory of Everything” is to sub-atomic physics. This broadens its appeal to various prejudices, even as it reduces itself to incoherence. The technique was presaged by The Illuminatus Trilogy (1975), a satirical fantasy that was a bestselling phenomenon.

Traditionally, cults flowed from strong-willed, charismatic leaders. Therefore, it was initially surprising to see that internet cults can be similarly successful despite the lack of a palpable leader. Except perhaps for a few government agents, nobody knows the identity or motives of Q, which could even be a committee. Weirdly, followers and critics alike accept Q’s claims at face value. Q might well be a low-level intelligence community employee who is playing out a wannabe fantasy. Or he (she, it?) might, more seriously, be an agent provocateur. Or could be anything in between. The growth of QAnon shows the undeserved aura of authority that surrounds the web even though most people know it is notoriously unreliable. Like most CTs, the Q narrative gains credibility despite its incoherence by using a blizzard of pseudo-references. If you trace some of these strands, you eventually find that they are self-references, a closed network that is no more than a loop, or an infinite regression of CTs within CTs, or weird interpretation of misunderstood facts.

With all that said, the article under discussion does little more than highlight another aspect of the information fog. With a movement like this, it is possible for anyone to come along and chew off a piece for himself. A guy named Protzman, who is more palpable but no more substantive, apparently claims the mantle of QAnon for himself, spouts nonsense that must confuse even “real” Q followers, and is taken at face value. Waiting for the return of JFK (let alone Jr.) doesn’t fit what I know of QAnon. But of course anyone today can speak for QAnon, and who can say otherwise. This is the fog. The body of CTs about JFK over more than 50 years have sprung from the left, as deflection from the inconvenient fact that he was assassinated by a Communist who had once defected to the Soviet Union. Hence you have JFK CTs about the Mob, the CIA, Castro payback, etc.

While I agree with Rothschild’s description of the psychological appeal of the QAnon cult, the claim in the ad for his book that it is “embrace[d] by right-wing media” is vague and untrue so far as I know. Tucker Carlson, Mark Levin, and Chris Plante among others have all denounced QAnon. My guess is that he is referring to fringe CT media like Alex Jones.

It is useless to try to argue with CT believers, because they are usually infinitely resourceful at inventing explanations for inconsistencies. To engage is to enter their realm, a maze of funhouse mirrors. I have simply told the Q follower I know that I am not interested in predictions or empty claims. I am only interested in well-documented events. Don’t tell me about 50,000 warrants; when 50,000 officials are rounded up and jailed, you can gloat and tell me “I told you so.” This is the “show me the money” argument. The only way to deal with extreme CT believers is to outwait them. When the apocalypse or other extreme event doesn’t happen, they will either sheepishly realize they have been fools, or they will fall into an embittered silence. As Rothschild notes, this may take years (see the Millerites).

Many years ago I declared to friends that the principal problem of modern life (outside the realm of science) is how do you know what is true? The internet has paradoxically made the problem vastly more difficult, due to information overload. You can apply history, logic, psychological analysis, and other means to get at the truth, but the simplest technique is an ancient one: By their fruits they shall be known.

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Carlson denounced QAnon? I had trouble finding a clear example, but came across things like this instead

With various video clips that are referenced therein

On the other hand, here is a take from Ben Sasse

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Just because someone chooses not to act upon something, it doesn’t mean they haven’t got a clue. The ‘‘government’’ is a wide term. A prime minister, a mayor, a president, a local governor, a member of congress of parliament may be thoroughly stupid people without any knowledge other than where to put their signature to make money. However, their assistants and consultants and administration specialists are very well aware of what is happenning in our society, because it’s their job, their professional sector. They have degrees and doctorates and published works on it.

I think they know fairly well how CTs work but they choose to leave them aside for when they need them. E.g. if a twitter hashtag annoys the boss, they make some fuss about a conspiracy and they turn the tide in a few hours.

The general public is composed by people like me, who know nothing and who might like a light CT reference in books or films, to make them less conventional and by people who have studied or are professionally trained on how to deal with CTs. When we say “general public” we should think of its vastness.

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I do not think that there is a conceivable way that any important group of conspiracy theory activism is not infiltrated very soon by government agents of all kinds.

We are very used to the bumbling foolery of the modern politicians that are seemingly ignorant about even very basic aspects of everyday life like going shopping or paying bills or, worst of all, actually having a job. Their total disconnection from reality creates a mirage of incompetence that is there to mask the people that are actually doing the groundwork.
It sounds like a conspiracy theory in and of itself eh? :wink: But I think that is just common sense on how governments can/should practically work.

Underneath the veneer of democracy the system is run by people that are never elected, so they are never really replaced, unless some other “circle” of power wishes to place some more trusted people on said posts. More often than not, we never even learn of those people’s names or existence, unless some scandal or blunder brings them unexpectedly in the spotlight, and usually they are HIGHLY competent at what they do.

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In my experience, people are highly ready and willing to believe and do anything, as long as someone else takes initiative and responsibility, and they can just claim to follow “someone who knows”.

I very rarely see people who have at least some affection for responsibility and accountability become part of such groups.

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:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Oh, celebrity stans, never change.

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Information of first importance can be found here: https://www.whosdatedwho.com/

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I think this is more 2021 than coronavirus at this point…

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It was a passing comment of ridicule that I heard myself.

The Carlson clips, as I expected, are the kind of typically tendentious interpretations that one gets in today’s public discourse. The first one doesn’t even do what the poster claims. Right in his first sentence Carlson acknowledges that QAnon is spreading disinformation. However, the clip is focused on the source; and indeed, there is no authoritative source available to the public, not even for the existence of Q (obviously, the Feds might know a lot more). With or without a leader, it is quite possible that QAnon grows organically, that is, that individuals add threads to the tapestry on their own in the name of a mythical Q. The ever-expanding and increasingly goofy scope of it tends to support such a view. There are precedents for a CT that existed only as a belief but not as a movement (most notably in much of the Copperhead Conspiracy, as well as the NY Slave Conspiracy of 1719). Further, it appears that Carlson, like many, has been confused at times about the difference between Q and QAnon.

Similarly, the second clip is about free speech and free thought. Carlson stands with the Founders in wanting to protect that. The antidote to wrong ideas consists of facts and logic, not censorship. The attempt to suppress any forbidden ideas is that it draws attention to the idea, stimulates interest among the curious, and creates more fertile ground for further expansion of the CT—people begin to think that suppression means there is some truth in the thing being suppressed.

And so it goes with the rest.

You are right, I should have said Federal government.

I’m afraid I have less confidence in the Feds. I have seen too many times when they respond by words and by action in ways that actually feed the appearance of conspiracy. I attribute this to ignorance and stupidity. My father used to say, ‘never attribute to conspiracy what might be explained by ordinary human stupidity.’ Consider two examples:

The JFK CTs have been greatly fueled by the incompetent autopsy. A former NYC coroner wrote a great book on forensic pathology and included a long chapter on the JFK autopsy, showing its shocking incompetence and explaining how a proper understanding of that completely deflates the CTs. Unfortunately, I traded the book away after reading it decades ago and can’t now remember the author’s name or the title.

Many cults, revolutionary groups, and criminals have been burned out over the years. For example, the SLA, the national militia group headquartered in Washington state (I forget their name), and the Move cult in Philadelphia. This has led to a widespread belief that this is a deliberate tactic. The Feds claim that these cases were caused by flash-bang devices inadvertently starting fires. That may well be true, but it raises the question, why has such a dangerous tactic not been stopped?

This may be so, although the FBI seems to be already overtaxed by monitoring foreign terrorist cells. Some years ago, it was announced that such cells exist in all 50 states.

Your paragraph describes what is known here as the Deep State. This term confuses people now because it is used with two different meanings. The original refers to the situation you described, an entrenched bureaucracy who are the real wielders of power via regulation. This derived from a French term that I am told translates as “permanent government.” The other, evolved (or corrupted) meaning refers to an explicit conspiracy.

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Wouldn’t it be great if they made a board game adaptation of Hikaru no Go?

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I highly doubt that there are any significant “foreign terrorist cells” in rural places like Wyoming, but that’s just me. In any case, if we assume that there are agents/informants in all those states watching over obscure “foreign terrorist cells” I think that it is safe to assume that they have managed to do the same with a HUGE open group of locals like QAnon, with open fora, open gatherings and all that stuff. :slight_smile:

Your paragraph describes what is known here as the Deep State. This term confuses people now because it is used with two different meanings.

It actually has many meanings - and all them negatively charged - which is why I do not use it.

Personally I do not consider the permanent bureaucracy as “deep state”. That for me is the de facto state itself. What we are voting for - at least in theory - is which party/program/idea will preside and manage and rule that exact state. If we were to call that “deep state” then I have to wonder “then how would someone define the actual state?”

Then there is the surface “deep state” of actual members of the state which work together to divert power from the elected officials and channel it to their own hands. That could be called a “conspiracy”, but it is not really. That’s just how things work, else how can you appoint whatever random person the people or the party voted and still expect from a public service to run correctly?
Then there is the “deep state” of the people that pay/fund for all those things. A prime example of brutal honesty is this:

I do not know about you, but I found that kind of thing refreshing to watch. Finally someone that went out and said it. Still that is NOT a conspiracy though … as George Carlin apty put it “You don’t need a formal conspiracy when interests converge. Those people went to the same universities and fraternities, they are in the same country clubs, they have like interests, they don’t need to call a meeting. They know what’s good for them and they are getting it.” (source and timestamp at the end - a very interesting discussion if someone wants to watch all of it)

And frankly I do not see much wrong with that when it is done over the table. The only issue I find with the idea is that us, normal people, do not have the same unity and tenacity in banding together in promoting what we want and need. Last time I checked, that is one of the very pillars of democracy. I do not think that it is very good to call it a “deep state” when others actually get to practically use the tools provided by the system. In my country we have a “union for companies” (fancy that :smiley: ) called Hellenic Federation of Enterprises and as you can imagine they actively (and openly) push for their own agenda to steer the country to benefit their own interests. Just because other professions and similar unions are fragmented (and thus weak) and most people loathe that organisation for pushing a very self-centered agenda, that doesn’t change the fact that this is a legal and open and democratic process. So, no “deep state” there either.

The real “deep state” with bad connotations is when corruption ACTUALLY comes in. You know the thing. Illegal trade deals, politicians getting a lot of money on the side for making deals and buying from this company and not that one, a whole country looking the other way while a company gets to generate an opiod crisis and stuff like that. That is the only “deep state” and that is the only one that should have had negative meaning. But, we live in a world were words and meanings are conflated (and not by accident), which has led to all of the things mentioned above to be bundled under one label and be deemed equally reprehensible.

Earlier source:

Edit because I just remembered:
You might be amused by the knowledge that the sanctimonius Horace in the video was later charged with fraud and pleaded guilty in a corruption lobbying case. I mean there are somedays that life is really funny :innocent: source for that too

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if 2 countries will attempt it at the same time, it will become cold…)

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The years 2000 through 2009 was such a golden era for the design of those New Year’s novelty glasses that look like the year, and we never really appreciated what we had until it had passed.

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at least some people are trying to keep the faith alive:

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