22K uhuuu! :) - And some sad news about discouragement

Today I beat Leela Zero desktop version with only 4 handicaps, and my rating went to 22K on the software!

I am happy because Leela Zero started with 25K but I lost so many games that my starting rating was actually 28K. I was playing with 5 handicaps, and when I finally got to 4, it took me a while to win the first time. The strategy changes a bit. You must not be so aggressive and must pay more attention to territory.

Here at online-go site I’m still 25K because I’m not playing that much here, after I had a game not fairly adjudicated. I felt discouraged after that. Mods should be careful. With great power comes great responsibility.

I remember I was so active here that I even won a badge of “new member of the month”, and I was also a site supporter.

Now I’m coming back slowly. I hope that was a single exceptional event.



I’m sorry your bot game was ruled as a draw instead of you losing. If you really wanted to lose rightfully, you could have just resigned. In any case, the game was annulled and so did not affect your rating at all.


It might sound strange, but for a (at the time) 25K, losing is not the point. Almost all my games was lost anyway.

It is just a waist of mod power to go after a beginner trying to make sense of stones on the board.

Anyway, I don’t think this approach to the conversation would be productive. Specially when you say “sorry” meaning sarcastically “not sorry”. Be plain and polite, even when you disagree. No need for sarcasm.

I don’t mind losing, I just wanted to explain why I was not so active after that fact. If that activity is not in mods heart, so, it is me who is sorry. (truly, not sarcastically).


1 Like

My interpretation of the situation is that you requested help to end the game because the bot wasn’t passing. I do not know why the game was annulled as a draw, I’m sure the moderator who served you meant nothing malicious by it. If this has not been your experience of our services, I truly am sorry.


Thanks @BHydden.

I’m sure you are right. I remember the mod telling me he had the best intentions.

I won’t blame anyone, it was just a sad experience that I need to shake off.

I’m back and I’m glad to be here with you.



Good to have you back :slight_smile:


I have actually been keeping an eye out for you @drbeco . I really enjoy your enthusiasm for and genuine interest in Go. I am sorry to hear that you had a bad experience. I really hope that you continue to come around and share your wonderful personality with our community. I have genuinely missed your face around here :heart:


Just for the sake of clarity, I would assume you mean the original Leela, NOT Leela Zero? As far as I know zero does not give handicaps, nor estimates opponent’s rank.

Just in case somebody wanted to try the same…


I’m also assuming it was a 9x9 game…


Please explain to me what kind of valor can be gained by competing with a meaningless piece of iron? Go is a competition of minds, a competition of ideas, but not a competition between a person and an algorithm. What is the point of such a competition? We compete in running, but does it ever occur to anyone to compete in speed with a car? Not. Because such a competition is meaningless. Just like a Go competition with a computer. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

1 Like

Hey most of us don’t compete in the skill of washing clothes with other people either.


Thanks to you, I have chosen a more accurate example. :handshake:

1 Like

A huge kind of valor:

But if actually want an honest answer:

Bots are mostly tools, not means of scoring heroism points. At beginning levels, players often choose them for one of the following reasons:

  • To get comfortable with fundamentals before switching to humans
  • To quickly get a lot of games with many undos - exploring different variations and trying if/how different moves work without feeling like they are bothering other (stronger) players with undos and questions they can figure out on their own.
  • It is a lot of fast practice

You seem to like metaphors so think of them as punching bags. :wink: Not much valor hitting those, and yet, boxers still use them to this day.

Stronger players use bots, because they are currently the strongest, and of course we all want to learn from the best.


The main thing is that players do not aspire to become bots. Because bots are strongest. :rofl: :joy:

And it seems to me that there is a difference between “learning from the strongest” and “learning from the strongest piece of iron.”

1 Like

Not everyone is out there to prove something; some of us just want to have fun (let’s not get into why can’t we choose to have fun with other people).

?! Bots never let me undo :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

For me, Go, at its highest, is a competition with one’s own mind. Bots are no hindrance to this.


They do if you are playing against them on your own machine as OP has been


Here’s Usain Bolt, the fastest human that ever lived, competing against a car

For a lot of people, the point of playing Go or running isn’t to win, but to get stronger or faster. If one simply wants to win, they can compete against weaker or slower opponents, but how meaningful is that? However, to get stronger/faster, it’s not about defeating others, but rather improving oneself.

In running, it’s very meaningful to compete against no other humans at all, but rather only the clock, with the goal of achieving a new personal best. Unless one is competing at the highest levels, the only meaningful opponent is oneself.

The analogy between Go and running is strained by the fact that Go is inherently a combative discipline where one must face another opponent. Hence, if one wants to measure their own progress in Go, it’s not as straightforward as running against a clock, and that’s where a bot can conveniently provide a consistent reference point.

Such a statement seems almost like trolling? Are you not aware of the famous match between Lee Sedol and AlphaGo? The significance of that human vs computer competition is huge and it is widely acclaimed as one of the most meaningful matches of all time. It is by far the most notable match in recent history and probably a big reason behind why many of the newer players are even here.

While a human opponent has the flexibility of being able to teach using language, a bot is more constrained by how it may communicate its analysis in a readily accessible form. However, the strongest go players do still indeed try to learn from the strongest bots, because there is knowledge to be gained and benefits to their own strength to be obtained.


Really??? So I wanna see Lee Sedol competing in Go with my smartphone. :joy: What about Usain Bolt and some of Ferrari? It will be like a match between Sedol and AlphaGo.

1 Like

Hi Adam!

Yes, it is. Second time I confused the name. To be clear, here is a picture of the program with the “about” dialog open:

It is the so called sjeng version.



Dear Mulsiphix1,

I’m honored to know that I could touch your attention with such kindness. Thanks a lot.

We will see each other for times to come, don’t worry.

My best!