# 4-4 with standard enclosure query

So you have a stone on the corner on the 4-4 point with a standard small knight enclosure towards either side of the board.

My question is can the invasion at 3-3 live? Sometimes I succeed sometimes I fail so it unclear to me if its overplay to even try…

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This is a good but tough question. I’m not the best to answer it, but here’s a useful Sensei’s Library article

https://senseis.xmp.net/?4463Enclosure33Invasion

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It’s not quite true to say it should be a ko.

There are two positions:

1. a ko
2. a shape where White either lives or dies outright depending on the outside situation

If White is particularly strong on the outside, he can choose the second option.

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My point being, that 4-4 with 6-3 enclosure is not safe, since 3-3 invasion can still live. Either by utilizing outside strength to make a living shape outright, or by creating and winning the ko (and if there are not enough ko threats for winning the ko, its usually a mistake to invade 3-3)

What the other said…

But also keep in mind that a Ko is worth something. Simplified you either win the Ko and get the corner, or you get the privilege to play two moves somewhere else. This can be used to safe a otherwise dead group.

Your opponent will likely chose the more valuable option, but you get at least something out of it if you invade at the right time.

This is why 3-3 is bane… and why I always hesitate when I play the star point…

Got this from an actual game it originated from 3-3 invasion of a 4-4 point with small knight extension and according to sensei library and joseki library it should die as its a type of L group in the corner.

So either I goofed or it can truly live. I have been trying to kill for 48h now and cannot find a way. Can anyone confirm this?

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I am on mobile only, so did not analyze super deep, but think these might be the variations you are looking for.

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Tried everything to make it live from your throw in variation at 1-2 point and I can’t so I think you solved it!