5-4 joseki "mistakes" in OJE?

And I merely meant to say that I have all the same questions and then some. :smiley:

This seems like a good starting point. It might be easier to categorize joseki as ā€œgenerally AI approvedā€ and ā€œsituationally AI approvedā€ with reference to specific situations in which the AIā€™s choice of joseki depends heavily on the board state.

Variations that heavily depend on ladders may still be a problem though, right?

1 Like

I suppose that OJE variations involving ladders are already marked as such?

But it would still be good/neccessary to verify ladder (in)dependency when corroborating OJE content with AI, at least ladders that are made/broken by a 4-4 stone in the diagonally opposite corner, and perhaps even a 6-4 stone if that is already known to (or accidentally found to) affect that particular variation.

2 Likes

My practice is to download 5-8 pro games where the joseki that Kata disapproves of appears or can be chosen and see if KataGo is consistent with itā€™s dislike of the human pattern.

This is where I am leaning. The thing is that with most joseki, it isnā€™t needed.
There are not a lot of exceptions where there are 3-4 point mistakes in popular human patterns.

Only super outdated(and offbeat 5-4) joseki, trick plays, and traditional joseki mistake refutations really need regular treatment and I think it can be handled with a new label and group discussion rather than hard and fast rules like trying to find a ā€œstandard 19x19 positionā€ to judge from or an exact point value of things to call mistakes or AI variations to include as refutations.

Basically, this should be a rare enough circumstance that it should be case-by-case and involve a discussion.

1 Like

I collected every pro game from Fox in 2020. It isnā€™t a source that I use for OJE contribution but it could be helpful in this circumstance to show how professionals were playing this joseki post-AI.

Edit: OGS adds lables everywhere, download it into your own SGF editor and it is cleaner.

3 Likes

Although there are newer influences (AI, some newer books, weiqitv, streamers, people thinking for themselves watching modern pro games), I think what could be called the western go cannon is still heavily influenced by Japanese Go books from the 70s-90s, and therefore what member of that community think and teach as joseki is very different to what modern pros think of joseki. Hereā€™s a pretty dead joseki in pro play than I still often see on go servers Play Go at online-go.com! | OGS.

3 Likes
It's indeed antiquated.
2 Likes

Are there any sources on Joseki as comprehensive as the older Japanese books but covering the new meta? I think the undue influence is in part caused by a lack of good alternatives. Thereā€™s also a time-delay to the spread of innovation, especially in the such a niche community. If I learn nice reliable Joseki from some grey beard who read it in a book in the 80s, I canā€™t be blamed for teaching to a newer player at my Go club.

Although OJE is a great feature, I find it harder to learn new Joseki from it than from completely outdated Go books because the outdated Go books have a decent amount of commentary and explanations to go with the variations. Better to have a rusty sword you know how to swing than a F22 that you just end up crashing.

4 Likes

To my knowledge, you need to carry your rusty sword in the F22 as there is not yet what youā€™re hoping for.
To handle the F22 better a book was mentioned here Books for influence playing - #12 by shinuito but no feedback on it yet.

Good to know the name: Catenaccio joseki at Sensei's Library