Advice regarding when to resign

Mh… glad it was never me who annoyed you that way :wink: but I really think such players are not deliberately rude but really desperate (as you already can see from their moves).

I can understand that a desperate person wouldn’t care about politeness … so, for me, the lesson would be to play calm moves, as necessary, or to pass just as calmly, i.e. a lesson in patience.

You make a good point, and annoyance on my part is probably being petty. Patience. That said, in extreme cases, I think there is some justification for my point. Take for example a game I played recently on IGS. We had already played through the entire end-game. I passed. Then then the absurd moves started and lasted longer than the entire game up to that point. By the end I had passed at least a dozen times. Once twice in a row. We could have played an entire new game in the time spent on that silliness. I mean in the end of the day, I got to play go, so really no complaints really. But it feels disappointing I guess, like if you were to have a spirited debate with someone, and after a long well fought discussion, you have the upper hand. Then instead of ceding the point, they just continue with “your face” and “your mom” rejoinders for the next half hour before giving up.

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Yeah, I played a game on Tygem once where the opponent insisted on (after it was time to pass) filling in his own territory at the very end of each byo-yomi period unless I would agree to a draw. And I forgot, he also began counting every other turn and then wouldn’t accept the result and we would go back to playing. I really should have just resigned in retrospect instead of putting up with it for 3 hours and then resigning because no WAY was I going to acquiesce to his demand for a draw. Actually one of the reasons I eventually switched to OGS: there are mods here.

Yep, live I’d probably just abandoned the game instead of spending a couple of hours having this kind of “fun”. And certainly it would be my last game with that person. It doesn’t work in correspondence, though. If my opponent insists of spending an extra year losing a clearly lost game, fine with me. :slight_smile:

In such extreme cases as decribed in the last few comments I’d recommend clicking the “call moderator” button on the right flyout menu:

Mods can in such cases decide which colour wins the game.

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OGS 1, Tygem 0. :slight_smile:

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Playing devil’s advocate for a second :innocent:
I had the same thing happen to me on Tygem, someone waiting at the last second to play random moves and asking for draws. So I clicked on the wonderfully labeled “Ask a help” button, and to my surprise, a mod came and resolved the issue! (I was honestly not expecting much…)

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I have yet another perspective to offer.

I prefer to play as long as there is something for me to learn. In many situations, I will know the game is lost, but there is something I want to play out. Frequently, I will ask if this is OK. I have yet to be denied in this request, but I will honor my opponent if the would prefer I resigned at that point.

Tournaments are a very different situation. I would never draw out a clearly lost game. “Clearly lost” here means that I would still lose even if I take all the endgame that I can see. The one exception to this is correspondence tournament where I can take the time to determine that the game I am in is not holding up progression.

I have had the occasional player who will try to run out the clock, but the clock is a part of a timed game and I have agreed to play at the time standard of the game I am in.

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By the way, I remember there was another thread recently where this was discussed. There is probably more, that’s a popular topic :slight_smile:

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This is too good not to share, although it’s not my finest moment I admit. I had been comprehensively outplayed and at the end, when my opponent decided to end the game, instead of passing I resigned. I could say I was so caught up in th game that I didn’t count territory, but I don’t think the reason matters that much. I saw the game was lost and hit resign instead of pass - at which point my opponent took offence.

Serious question though. Is there a point of etiquette about resignation versus passing? And how much does the points margin really matter at DDK level? I have played games that ended with a large margin, but were very close up until the end - Not in this case, I was outplayed all the way through, but I don’t think you can get that just from the score.

I understand your situation. Happens a lot. Usually opponents I see doing this will go all the way to the endgame, verify from the autoscore that the loss was too big (20-30ish) which somehow affects their self-esteem and leads them to resign instead. I for one am not bothered by such ‘amazing big wins’ stolen from me as my pride is not so shallow. Some prefer to time out as well so as not to taint their game record (like seriously, the world cares enough about you to stalk your profile to check every single bad loss you had).

Apparently what you experienced is the opposite of this where he thought you did it on purpose and his self-worth is apparently based on the margin of his wins. Who knows, his win rate might be so bad that he needed that huge margin win to compensate emotionally.

This is my own etiquette: If I bother to play the game all the way to the endgame, I pass and accept the score, whatever it may be.
To me, resigning at the end is rude and kind of pointless. If you resigned of you own accord before the end because of your own positional judgement then I think it’s fine. You did it very near the end (1, 2 moves away from counting) which is kinda pushing it etiquette-wise.

End of the day I think Go teaches you about how to handle your own pride. All problems associated to bad online Go etiquette become nothing to you if your pride is not based on such shallow indicators, like giving a won game to someone who is dragging it out forever is nothing to you.
If you opponent steals your ‘big win’ or you give that ‘big win’ away, you wouldn’t be affected either. I feel the main problem lies within us as individual to allow such things to affect us.

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That makes sense. I’ll try to keep in in mind for future games. Thanks :slight_smile:

While I agree with @hiryuu about the etiquette of resigning, I’d like to note two things:

  1. No matter how “badly” one opponent may resign—they may be a beginner with little or no knowledge about the etiquette of resigning.

  2. It clearly is a breach of any etiquette to call the opponent a “fag” or an “idiot” in reaction to such a resign (like @SgtSunshine’s opponent did). AND in this case there is no such excuse as being a beginner since every child learns that this is rude ➔ ➔ ➔

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I disagree to concentrate solely on the occurrence of swear-words.

Yes, those were totally inappropriate. However, SgtSunshine’s insults and attacks were also totally inappropriate even though they didn’t contain any swear-words, and browndedshells’ not-swear-word insults were at least as grave as the swear-words.

I am especially disconcerted by the fact that SgtSunshine didn’t feel ashamed enough to not link this conversation in the forum.

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Yeah, after reading the conversation, I have come to the conclusion that the exchange was pretty mild as far as internet arguments go (though I did play League of Legends in Bronze, so I may have a higher tolerance for that sort of thing) and isn’t worth getting the mods involved against either player (Though the OP’s question about etiquette is perfectly appropriate, of course). This also no doubt is influenced by my belief in free speech.I also think organizations/companies (not governments) (like OGS) have the right to restrict speech on their sites, but I still prefer as much free speech as is practical even though I think they have the right to disallow it.

I think that the OP’s opponent did start the exchange of insults and poor (as in fallacious, not as in poor taste, though they were probably that too) arguments, but somewhere around the middle, the OP escalated it with ad hominems which had nothing even remotely to do with go. I personally consider the OP’s insults to be worse, but opinions may vary.

In conclusion, both players could have handled it better, probably just closing the tab once the discussion ceased to have any merit, but on the whole it was not a big deal and neither should care about it now. (not implying that the OP (or his opponent) does, simply saying that he (and his opponent) shouldn’t)

Note that none of this should be taken as professional advice, legal or otherwise. I am simply a normal person who has formed, adopted, and modified opinions about a variety of topics, some of which pertain to the matter at hand.

Also, I think it is polite to let the game go to counting if it’s already to that stage or a couple moves away, but not a big deal. And on the off chance that one wants to help one’s opponent with etiquette, one should go about it much more deferentially than the OP’s opponent did. Imagine you’re a Japanese person telling someone they’re wrong. :slight_smile: But that’s just my opinion on the best way to approach that, so as I am rather weak in social interaction I would take this last opinion of mine with a much greater grain of salt than any of my above opinions. My other opinions were about what was right and what should be allowed. This last paragraph contained two opinions which were about politeness. But on the first I can defer to many go players who would agree with me. The second opinion (addressing the conveyance of failures to meet social conventions to the perpetrator of said shortcomings) expressed in this paragraph is of much sketchier reliability as it is a direct result of reasoning from my best mental model of social interaction, which is naturally weaker than that of a neurotypical person.

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I don’t think it’s realistic to expect the entire community of recreational online go players to follow any single set of unwritten rules. It hardly follows written ones :slight_smile:

Personally I find it a bit strange but not at all offensive when someone resigns just before counting.

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I linked the game, and its associated conversation, because I thought it might get a grin and because I couldn’t do a better job of expressing the depth of feeling my opponent displayed over my oversight. If they had expressed themselves more moderately I’d have apologised and congratulated them on a well deserved win, but one of my many character failings is that I tend to return fire if opened up on. Also I’m not above owning my lapses of good manners. Neither of us came out well from that conversation, nor the one that followed it, when my opponent PM’d me out of the blue to continue the argument.

As for the ad homs - I don’t think they were inappropriate - or at least any more inappropriate than the rest of the discussion. Childish and stupid certainly, but since this was basically an online playground fight, I’d say they were perfectly in keeping with the rest of the ridiculousness.

I didn’t post the link because I wanted to show how right I was and how wrong my opponent was, I posted it because I thought some might find it amusing and also as an example of how not to discuss a difference of opinion. I think that outweighs the minor embarrassment I might feel from coming across as just as big a tit as my opponent.

By the way. This happened shortly afterward. It wasn’t you was it?

Why do you link this in an answer to me and why do you ask if it was me after I said what I think of this kind of behaviour?

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Please, guys, don’t make this go farther, allright? :wink:

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Well, I realise that it’s a bit arbitrary, but the guy who sandbagged me said he had joined the site some time after me and he was at least ten stones stronger. Given that it happened shortly after I posted the link to the game, I thought it a reasonable assumption that it was in response to that, [although I realise that post hoc ergo propter hoc is shaky reasoning] So I had to ask.

Anyway, I’m not trying to start a fight. I notice we’re both site supporters, so if nothing else, we have in common the fact that we both think this is a worthwhile place to hang out and we woudn’t be having this discussion if we didn’t feel passionately about Go. I’ve seen your comments on here and you’ve given me a couple of teaching games. I have a great deal of respect for you, insofar as you can gauge a person’s character from what they post online. If you’re offended by my asking the question then I apologise, and if my erstwhile opponent should read this then I apologise to them also. I had no idea that my resignation would upset you so much and it wasn’t done for that purpose but I accept that at that stage of the game it would have been better to count territory.

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